Lenny 0:02

Welcome to waiting after it. Return to it. Unless it's okay.

Jack 0:19

You're gonna edit something?

Lenny 0:20

Yeah. Okay. Oh, okay. I'll just edit out whatever you say. That way my message comes out clearer. Exactly. I was hoping you'd say that. It it makes everything a lot less complicated when guests are involved.

Jack 0:37

Exactly right. So what you do is we call together a whole bunch of people and then we don't record any of them. Yes. We only record our thoughts.

Lenny 0:45

Yeah, I put them all on mute, so I they don't go on record, but everybody hears them.

Jack 0:52

Right. And they think that they're being recorded, so they mind their business. Yes.

Lenny 0:57

Right. Because then it sounds like we're all speaking from one voice. My voice. Right. That's right. Wow, that podcast really came together, and I was really happy with it.

Jack 1:08

That's right, Pastor.

Lenny 1:10

That's not puffed up at all. Reverend. That's what I go by. I prefer Reverend. Yeah. There was a bit of a delay there, Jack. You have a problem with me being your Reverend? No. Alright, so something drew me to looking at some of the elements of the Sermon on the Mount, and I noticed something that was interesting, and it pertains to fear, anxiety, and self-righteousness, all in an interesting way that I found. I was like, wow, this is fascinating. We call it the Sermon on the Mount. I mean, that's just a heading in our Bible. Jesus never said, gather around, the Sermon on the Mount is about to begin. You know, it was just him teaching. But it starts out he's dealing with a lot of different sins, sins that I think we all look at and see, like, yeah, we don't really want that in our lives. He got lust, anger, divorce, revenge, tells you to love your enemies. And then there's this chapter break, right? And then all of a sudden it goes into self-righteousness, prayer, fasting, and then in 619 through 24.

Melissa 2:21

Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The eye is the lamp of the body, so if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness? No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life what you will eat, or what you will drink, nor about your body what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God still clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore, do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? Or what shall we drink, or what shall we wear? For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Therefore, do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Lenny 4:24

Found it to be really interesting that he starts out talking about all this sin, and then all of a sudden, right after he lays out that whole thing on lust, anger, divorce, loving enemies, he goes into self-righteousness, prayer, fasting, and then all this anxiety stuff. It's kind of fascinating to me that he does that because if you put yourself in the audience of the first century Jewish people that he was speaking to, as he was delivering that Sermon on the Mount, if they had pencils and paper, can't you just picture them like writing all these things down?

Melissa 5:02

Oh, sure.

Lenny 5:03

And saying, you know what, we gotta record this. This is important. Uh we gotta write this down because this is what we have to live by. And yet, interestingly, right after he laid all that out, he starts dealing with self-righteousness. It was as if he read their minds before they could even think. It's uh almost like he was saying, okay, now don't write this down because what I'm gonna tell you next is why you don't want to actually make this the next list of commandments. He was speaking to their hearts, right? Most interesting thing that I think I want to draw on in this first section, because we're talking about fear and anxiety, is that that whole thing was a continuous message. He's talking about anger, lust, but then he starts talking about self-righteousness, and he starts talking about fear, and he starts talking about anxiety, all in the same message. And what does he what does he actually say about those things? He says the same things that he said about lust. Do not lust. He says, Do not be anxious. And you're like, whoa, that's a direct command from the Lord if we're gonna take it that way. Why don't we really hear people talking about that so much as they do about these other sins? It's like we're comfortable with all the other ones, but then we look at fear and anxiety, and it's like, oh, that's a different category, because everybody does that.

Jack 6:27

Yeah, good point.

Lenny 6:28

Why would he say don't? Why would he be so what might have made him actually make that a command just like the rest of the sins? What do you think his point was?

Melissa 6:38

That we're supposed to cast our anxieties on him.

Lenny 6:41

Yeah.

Melissa 6:42

That it's important, that it's harmful.

Jack 6:44

I'd also say it's a decision, but it was our decision. If you can do it, and if you can not do it, that's based on a decision.

Lenny 6:55

Yeah, all these things are things that we can do or not do. And they all come from the inside out, don't they? Fear originates within, but then it can also be expressed in our lives. So we choose kind of let it in and then it expresses itself out just like lust. The expression of lust that he gave is what originates in the mind will end up coming out in our actions oftentimes. So fear, anxiety and those things can be consuming just like sin, can't they?

Melissa 7:31

And they would be sin, right?

Lenny 7:33

I see it all categorized as one and the same thing. But when I see it as sin, I'm just saying that I'm kind of looking at it more from Paul's vantage point, where everything that doesn't come from faith is sin. And so if perfect love casts out fear, then what would the opposite of God's perfect love be? Maybe fear. And so we all experience these emotions, but I think what Jack said is that we we have a choice as to what leads us. And it kind of reminds me of the rich young ruler. You know, you you hear that story about the rich young ruler and he's like, So, uh what do I have to do? What's left, Jesus? And he's like, Well, you gotta obey the commandments. Well, I did all these since I was young. Okay, well then sell everything you have and follow me.

Jack 8:19

I think many times uh we get that you know, what was going through Jesus' mind at that time with the rich young ruler, everyone or many people feel as though he's he's saying, Give up what you have. But I really think that what went through Jesus' mind at that point in time was what's most important to you? Before I asked the question, what's the most important thing? Because I think that ruler was comfortable in who he was and obviously pious and comp and you know and very egotistic in his walk because he wanted to parade in front of everyone. He was asking a public question that says, Hey, you know, I don't sin, so now what? And so Jesus said, Well, let's see, what is it about him? And he asked that question and it deflated this guy. Some people think it was the you know, the rich young ruler was also the one who came to him and fled without a garment later as if he was actually the person who had finally listened to Jesus. That's just a thought, that's not a yeah that hasn't been proven in scripture or anything, but it's just a point that says maybe he did give everything away, but he was still lost.

Lenny 9:32

Mm-hmm.

Jack 9:33

Instead of he gave everything away and he gained it the kingdom because he did it on his own accord.

Lenny 9:39

I heard some speculation that pointed to that possibly being Lazarus. Oh. That possibly that was actually Lazarus because there's all these connections that go back to the um the original settings that Lazarus was a high priest that came down with leprosy. Case in point, there's theories, and there was actually a biblical movie, I can't remember which one that portrayed it that way, that he was possibly that person because there's connections in scripture that leave him to believe that, but I think that person could have been genuine and came back to follow him. But I totally agree that what Christ was doing was poking at the heart, and the commandments weren't correcting his heart. He was still looking at that law-based righteousness, where if I do all the things, then that's that's how I get there, because his question to Jesus was just that, you know, what have I not done? What's left? How do I get to heaven? What do I do? And you know, don't let money control you. Which are you gonna be guided by? He even made that statement. You can only be guided by one or the other, money or the Lord. So which one are you gonna be guided by? The reason I think that ties so much to fear and anxiety is because those are things that we hang on to as if they're our big bank account. We can find ourselves, it seems, in phases of life where it just becomes consuming, and we have a responsibility to it somehow in our minds. Like, well, if I don't worry about it, who will? Because I have to deal with this, I have to figure this out, and you go into a cycle of rumination and you don't want to let go. But the Lord says to cast our anxiety on Christ. He doesn't say work it out through careful planning and analyzing every angle of your fears until you've come to a perfect solution. It actually is a vicious cycle and it controls you.

Jack 11:34

I also think that that is so vital in the fact that that's the walking faith that we have the opportunity as new covenant believers, new new creatures, new creation, new experience. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that as new creations, when we experience those things in our life, those habits, or those things in our life, those feelings that come to us. And we say to ourselves, man, you know, I'm supposed to be victorious and I can't seem to deal with this. I don't know what's going on here. I mean, I feel like I'm failing, but I know that I'm more than a conqueror, or I I, you know, I'm a new creation. Why is it still affecting me like this? And I'm not gonna pass it off as it's just a test. I want to I want to see what's going on here. And I think many times that faith implement that we're given in Hebrews 1 moves over into those areas of our life where we deal with feelings, emotions, and the transient areas in our life. Because you know, feelings can change, emotions can change. We all know that, we all experience it, but we live in a fact realm, and that fact realm is what God expects us to use our faith on. So as we come into experiences in our life where there's a division between the temporal and the permanent, God says choose the permanent one. That's the same thing as Jesus said on the mount when he said do it. Make that choice. That's the earthly perspective. The spiritual perspective is to make the choice that's eternal. Because we know that feelings are ultimately controlled by us. So if we make eternal choices, at first it's hard. It's first it's very difficult because we think that we're putting up a facade or a front to cover what's really going on in us, and that's just a a a fear of losing that part of our emotion when really we should use that part of the emotion, but we don't want to, because that's what makes us feel alive. So as we take and we say, okay, this episode is occurring to me, and I'm gonna make this choice, and I feel sort of funny at first, but as I continue in it, I don't feel as funny, and before I know it, it's part of me, and it becomes part of me, and that's how we are transformed into the image of who Christ would have us to be. That's a tough challenge. But I believe this is my perspective, I'm not saying it's anything other than what I've lived, that it's the little changes that we step out, see, that's faith. Faith is saying, Oh man, I am not worth much right now. I did that. That's so ridiculous. I'm so what a loser I am. But if we take uh we say in our mind, yeah, but wait, God said that he loves me totally and I'm his, and I'm not that, I'm not a loser. It has to start right there. And many people try to skip around it or anything else, but it has to start there when we say, wait a second, what does my father say I am? We don't bounce it off our mind, we listen, and then we have to do something in faith, which is what it's saying what we don't have yet, but we're going to have. Hebrews 11:1. We're going to have that. So by faith I say, Wow, I'm my father's child, and he loves me. He rejoices over me with singing. He thinks I'm valuable, so therefore I am. It takes that first step to say that. And then it takes our love of what God has done for us to continue in that. Because you know what happens after that? We stop criticizing other people. We stop criticizing those things around us, looking for the failures and losers around us, because now we recognize if we if we are loved by God, if we are truly his children, and he rejoices over us singing, he rejoices over that other person too. And the value of both of us is raised because of what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, because of what happens when we take those things of faith and actually apply them in our life. You're in a conversation with someone and they're saying, Oh man, you know that guy down the street. He's such a waste. And it hits you like a sledgehammer because inside you say, He's not a waste. He's God's loved, he's one of God's people. He's not a waste. His actions don't dictate his position, just like mind don't. And it transforms our mind, Romans 12, 2, into thinking that, wow, this thing really works. God is really real because he's transforming me, and as he is, I'm seeing other individuals being transformed. Because now I can encourage those people by seeing them as God sees them, honestly doing it, not just parroting it or anything else.

Lenny 16:45

Come to realize that it looks and sounds mystical to people when you tell them that the Lord can take those things away from them. The cast your anxiety on Christ theology sounds like something you'd put on your wall, but do you really believe it? I think no matter how far gone you are, how deep in anything you are, we can come back to grace just as fast as we fell. In the blink of an eye, our perception can change, and we can begin to start living from the correct perception again. And you know, that may take time if you're dealing with a lot of pent-up anxiety that's built up over the course of years that say maybe maybe you still feel it the next day, and you're gonna say, See, it's not magical, but the change of perception can begin healing those feelings very, very quickly. I've experienced that in my life. It's not like anxiety and all those things have gone away, but as I live, I draw from the scripture and what's taught by the apostles on those things, and I believe it to be true, and I believe that it's true in everybody's situation, not just some people's situation. And if we start making ourselves an exception to the teachings of the apostles and say, Oh, well, they were the apostles, they were the saints, so easier for them to say it, look what they had, and start saying, Well, you know, I'm different, and what I'm going through is different. We we kind of drift away from that that faith that heals us in those situations. Yeah. I believe that grace is always bigger than any problem that we can face. And if I lose sight of that, I'll run into troubles myself.

Jack 18:29

Yeah. So goes for all of us.

Melissa 18:31

Boy, well, I really needed to hear that. Thank you for bringing that up in such a way, Jack, and then Lenny putting it pulling it all together.

Jack 18:40

Well, I think, you know, sometimes it's just tough. It's amazing to have folks get over the hurdle of Christ is alive today. I mean, we are taking our lives out. The last thing most people want to do, like right now I'm sitting out on my we have what's called the beach room, which is a place where my desk is and we have some windows and it has chairs in it. And right now I'm sitting in an empty chair and there's two other empty chairs. I'm the chair I'm in is not empty, okay. I'm sitting in a chair and there's two other empty chairs.

Melissa 19:14

Thank you for clarifying.

Jack 19:16

Yes, well, I know. The word pictures. Uh but the reason I'm saying this is because the degree of my belief says that my Savior's in the same room with me right now. And he's as real as I am. And the depth of our faith sometimes passes that off as like a given, you know, like I'm saved and Jesus with me all the time and God's all the but the reality of grace is the infinite depth of who God is indwells us and surrounds us. And many times the most difficult thing is for individuals to speak to their savior in that context. Like right now, I can look across the room for me and I can tell Jesus everything right there. I can actually have a conversation with him. And so few have a conversation with him. I mean, there's some practice prayers out there, there's some good prayers, you know, all that. They postured themselves and they know which position to be in and what to ask and how to do it, the order of the prayer. I don't know if you guys ever went through that malarkey, but basically says, push you up to God and then get what you want, type of thing. Tell him all your weaknesses and then then ask for stuff at the end. Like, hey dad, by the way, I'm headed for the store. Do you want anything? But the truth is, that's the genuineness of God's grace in our life, it's his constant presence closer than our breath.

Lenny 20:51

Isn't that so peaceful? I found the same that same peace, and just imagining that Christ is right there with you is so peaceful. Sure. And you know he is, and that faith is seeing it in that faithful way is really meaningful because I I think the common view in our minds without that perception is that well, Jesus was a very historical figure two thousand years ago that allowed me to be able to be saved by grace for heaven.

Jack 21:20

Yes.

Lenny 21:20

And we pray to him, he's way up there, you know. Yeah, really pray to him, and we forget that he's indwelling, and we forget that he's omnipresent, we forget that his kingdom is here on earth, he's that he's all around us.

Jack 21:32

Yeah.

Lenny 21:33

And working in and through us. I mean, it's just beyond comprehension.

Jack 21:37

And that's right. That's the next level, that level of faith, Lenny.

Lenny 21:41

That's so true. And you think about grace and peace. Peace comes from grace and nowhere else. We we aren't going to find pe I think I've had people look at me cross eyed sometimes saying that you know, we we don't get peace anywhere other than God's grace. And so worldly people don't have that. People that without Christ don't have that peace. They can't have that peace. That's true peace. But scripture describes it as peace that goes beyond all comprehension.

Jack 22:14

Exactly.

Lenny 22:15

And that is so deep when you meditate on it. The peace that goes beyond all comprehension. Why why would they say that? What would make them say beyond all comprehension? Is it just that peaceful, that calming? Or is it the fact that you can have it in a situation where nobody could ever perceive peace? They'd look at you and be like, How in the world can you have peace right now?

Jack 22:41

Yeah.

Lenny 22:41

That goes beyond all comprehension. To me, that just means that it's that big that we can be at peace in times that would be so perplexing for somebody to be able to imagine, like Paul when he was writing his letters.

Jack 22:57

And that does bounce right off anxiety and stress. Yep. Sometimes that part of our life sweeps us up like a whirlwind. And Jesus was in that boat and he said that that storm, peace be still, and it quieted the Bible says it quieted the waves. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it just takes the faith of God in our hearts to say, peace be still and recognize that what can man do to me? What's the result of this anxiety? It's temporal and the peace of God is ruling my heart. That's a great phrase, isn't it? Let the peace of God rule your heart.

Lenny 23:37

Yeah, and and John Jesus himself said, I don't give as the world gives. Right. Don't let your hearts be troubled. Peace I leave with you, and my peace I give to you. He's saying I don't give as the world gives. So that means you can't get this peace from the world. Jesus just said it. He agreed with me in what I said earlier. Yeah. You can't have that peace without the grace of Christ. Which, as you've pointed out, grace is Christ. Christ is grace.

Jack 24:05

Yeah.

Lenny 24:05

That's where we get our peace from. And it goes beyond all understanding. So whenever we find ourselves in a place where, as Paul himself said, I'm perplexed. You know, when they were being tortured in that prison, they were perplexed. They were despairing for life, but where did he go with that? He said it was to depend on the Lord. So he didn't just reside there. He ended up finding his way back to peace. He found his way back to grace and it was at at peace again, the peace that surpasses all understanding. And in so many places in scripture, you see them singing songs and hymns in times where they would have been undergoing severe pain and challenging circumstances.

Jack 24:50

Yeah.

Lenny 24:51

That's just amazing. They're drawing from the same grace that we have.

Jack 24:55

Yeah, exactly.

Lenny 24:56

So do we not have access? Are we to say that, oh, that's that's just written in the Bible? That's just so that we can look at it and say, oh, how cool is that? Or is that actually something that we have because it's already there with us, we just have to realize it and believe it.

Jack 25:15

You know, the difference between what we're doing and what other folks are doing on this Sunday morning is that we can ask those questions. Then you brought up a good point. So the c obvious question that we can ask today that's that thousands of people can't ask if somebody's saying the same thing is, but what does that look like in our lives? What does that look like? I mean, platitudes are nice and you know the pastor can tell you, come to Jesus and you know, just go to him and all that stuff, and then you can you know go out to lunch or whatever they do. But here we are, we're in a spot where we can say, What does that look like? Yeah, what does that look like in my life, in all of your lives?

Lenny 25:59

What is it? In Paul's life he said it's forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead. So he put away all the fears, all the awful things from the past that he was undergoing on a regular basis, and he looked ahead, looking ahead at what? He looked ahead at what the work that the Lord had planned for him, right? Right.

Melissa 26:22

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Lenny 26:28

Yeah. And what was that other passage that you mentioned this week, Melissa? Always leading us in triumphal procession, scripture says.

Melissa 26:36

Paul was saying Christ is always leading them in triumphal procession.

Lenny 26:40

Always leading us in triumphal procession. So can we believe that? Are we supposed to believe that when life is a mess? When everything's falling apart, can we actually say to ourselves that when everything just feels like it's all over the place and a puzzle that needs to be put together, can we actually believe the words of Christ when he said it's finished? And then just say, you know what? It's finished. There's nothing undone.

Jack 27:06

Yeah. And can we confess it? Can we confess it? Or do we just say it inside and then say, Man, I don't know what we're gonna do.

Lenny 27:13

Exactly.

Jack 27:14

Really? Right? I was just gonna say that's why I'll just put a plug in there about that's why I wrote that song, Some Things I Know About Jesus. Because that whole song is the result of the awareness of his constant presence and how people dance around off that.

Lenny 27:31

Yeah.

Jack 27:32

That he's alive today and he's the now. Jesus is the now. We can't be that, but we can live in that. And I think that's that's pretty amazing. You know, I uh had a group in a fellowship that I was in, and it was a Sunday school class, and we were talking about prayer, and so I did as usual, the unexpected, and I said, Okay, now let's all pray together. But nobody bows their head and nobody closes their eyes. Let's just pray together. And the room went you could hear a pin drop in that room. It's just a habit that we live in, but experience says I don't have to go anywhere when I pray. Right? That's what we do when we close our eyes. We go somewhere. We go I don't know where we go, but now some people say they do uh in reverence. And I'm not saying it's wrong, and I'm not saying don't do it. I'm not because people I that's not the that's not the gospel, that's not the grace of God. But my point is it's not needed. Because if we b if I believe Jesus is right here, then he's right here. It would be like going to a dinner party and me walking over to Lenny, bowing my head and saying, How are you today? Closing my eyes. Right?

Lenny 28:54

I think sometimes depending on our perception, I think we may not want to think Jesus is right there in everything we're doing. And so probably not necessarily a good thing. But either way. But I think it begins, you know, with realizing it's safe to trust the Father. And especially when it comes to anxiety, it's okay to let go of what you see as your responsibility to manage your fear. You know, we're like our own project managers. Oh, I gotta figure out this fear. Maybe I need to look at it from another angle. It's kind of silly. It's a commonplace saying, but we all know the verse that I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me, right? And we kind of turn that into a prosperity thing, but it's really about being able to get through suffering and things along those lines. But doesn't it kind of seem like today the spiritual perception is more like I can do most things in Christ who strengthens me? Kind of like the meatloaf song, I'd do anything for the love of Jesus, but I won't do that.

Jack 30:02

Yeah.

Lenny 30:02

If you're asking me to let go of my anxiety, I'm hanging on to that, you know?

Jack 30:07

Yeah, that's my garbage.

Lenny 30:09

I use the analogy in that when I did the message, I think it was cast your anxiety on Christ. You just use the analogy of like, if I gave you the leash, Jack, and I say, Can you watch my dog for the weekend? And you're like, Yeah, sure. And you take the leash and you walk away, and I'm still holding the leash. I mean, you gotta let go of the leash, and I'm like, okay, okay, I'll let go of the leash, and then you turn around again because the dog feels really heavy and I'm holding on by the tail.

Jack 30:34

Uh huh.

Lenny 30:34

And I think that's like our anxiety is like we love our anxiety. And it and I if you were to ask somebody, do we love anxiety? The answer is always no. But then why do we act like it? Why do we act like something we're not? Like we're somehow bound to this stuff.

Jack 30:50

Yeah, that's a good point.

Lenny 30:52

And we find our identity in Christ is that we're actually strong because of him, we have his strength, and we go around sometimes acting like we don't have anything at all. Melissa, what were you saying?

Melissa 31:05

Well, first I wanted to ask you when you wrote that song, did you come to that conclusion from some suffering? Did suffering bring you to that conclusion about the Lord in your life right now?

Jack 31:16

Yeah. Yeah, I would say, I would say specifically, um, that was sort of part of the COVID experience for me.

Melissa 31:26

I was thinking you would say that.

Jack 31:29

Naturally, there was no hope ahead of me at all. I mean, they were already getting ready for hospice and all that type of stuff.

Melissa 31:35

Oh my.

Jack 31:36

So I um it went for me, it went below feeling. Some people say when they get to a low spot, you know, they always sense God's presence in their life. But I gotta tell you, I didn't. I didn't sense any presence in my life at all during this time. I shared with my mentor, who is my uncle, who's past he's passed since since then, but when I shared with him the experience, I said, you know, I there was no feeling, no sense, no spiritual sense of God's presence. The only thing I had was my confession, and I held to that confession. That was it. I felt as though I was one of the three Hebrew boys. You know, I did, in my experience, I just felt as I was the one who made the decision, and that was that God would never leave me, and He would never forsake me, and He's here right now, regardless of what anybody else says. And that's why some things I know about Jesus was written.

Lenny 32:35

Nice.

Melissa 32:36

Wow. So you when you say you weren't feeling anything um I'm trying to follow what you're saying, because that's really spiritual. When you say you weren't feeling anything spiritual, what do you mean by that? Where some people are some people in that position you said have all these You wasn't having any euphoric feelings.

Lenny 32:57

Oh I can relate with that because I've some of the hardest points in my life that I've gone through emotionally, you feel empty sometimes. You don't always feel like we were describing what Jesus is there talking with you. Sometimes you just feel completely empty. But you still but you s but you can still utter prayer, you can still honor the Lord in those moments. We can still do it, even though we feel that we have nothing. Yeah, and you're still able to, and he still listens, and he still guides.

Jack 33:30

I mean it's it's still there, it's all there, it's still there, but our feelings don't change the fact that he's there.

Lenny 33:36

That's exactly right. That's why we can't trust him. We can't trust our feelings. That oh Lenny, that is so good. Say that four times. Somebody could say, see, Jack, see Jack, your belief system, that's why he didn't wasn't there because you don't believe right or something like that. But exactly right. But everybody will find themselves in that place. I've heard other people say the same thing in tragic situations, even things like I'm prayed out, I don't even know what to say anymore. You feel empty. And in that moment I said, Well, pray about that. Pray that you can pray. It's okay to feel completely helpless and empty.

Jack 34:12

The greatest part of that is the eternity that is not based on feeling or presence. That's the thing.

Lenny 34:22

The experience and you sharing that is is bold and important because I see people today thinking that the presence of God is found in a good Christian song, worship music that's powerful at church, where you're singing along, lifting your hands in praise. But what happens when those feelings fizzle out into nothing, and you're left where you were at, Jack, where your feelings are no longer guiding your faith, and you no longer have any kind of feeling to go by whatsoever. Where do you go?

Jack 34:54

You sort of reach into your investment in those times. That oil, you know, that oil that the virgins had or didn't have. I think sometimes there's a little of that in this whole thing where let me rehearse the fact in me. Let me rehear I don't feel anything, but let me rehearse the fact that God is always with me. So is he with me because I feel like he's with me, or is he with me?

Lenny 35:19

See, that's gold. And then you start to realize much of our Christian life is preparing for hard times. We could look at it as, oh, this is just fun stuff learning about God, but this is an investment. Our relationship with the Lord and understanding and knowing and the building of our our own personal faith experiences is preparing us so that we can be ready when the storm hits, because Christ promises us in this life there will be troubles, doesn't he? He doesn't say just in case you might want to listen to what I'm saying, just in case.

Jack 35:50

And guess what? Every one of us, everyone listening has been in that a form of that a level of that place. Yep. Everyone listening has been through in that.

Lenny 36:00

And if we're still breathing, it's not over.

Jack 36:04

Yeah. And as a friend of mine used to always say, I mean, what can you do to a dead man? Mm-hmm. And that's you know an old cliche of the 80s, but there's some truth to that in our lives.

Melissa 36:17

Well, I wanted to say about prayer, that was a really good point you made about not having to bow our heads, and um, it's okay if you want to, but you don't have to, and I was gonna add, actually, if if you do, you might miss something.

Jack 36:30

Yeah.

Melissa 36:30

I'm not one for um, you know, you always have to have some kind of sign from the Lord, but I've definitely in times of need, um, the birds are kind of my thing that I'll be talking to the Lord and Yeah. A blue jay'll come and it'll come like so close, it's unbelievable, and just kind of look at you. And my dad and I shared that together. We both would would take pictures of these, you know, look at the cardinal the Lord sent me today, or the blue jay, and and I think Yeah, and it's just comforting. I think the Lord is He just sends us comfort in different ways. I've shared I'm going through some big struggles right now, and lately the squirrel. When I'm talking to the Lord, I'm looking outside, and I um I'll have to have Lenny maybe send you a- I sent him the picture of the squirrel. Okay. This squirrel.

Jack 37:21

I got it. I know exactly what you're talking about. The sleeping squirrel. He's on the deck post, his arms are all just laid out. I've never seen a squirrel live like this. Completely relaxed.

Melissa 37:33

Like a dog. Like a dog. And I can't believe it. And I tell you, Jack, I must have seen him like 20 times so far this season. And it's always on my hardest days. Um But anyway, the one day I step out on the deck, I'm having my coffee, and I'm I'm just talking to the Lord, and I'm looking out, and I'm thanking him, and I'm crying to him, and I'm I'm just asking him, just talking to him, talking to my father. And as I'm talking to him, this little squirrel, I see him heading my way. He's he comes out of the trees and he's heading my way, and I'm still talking to the Lord, and okay, little cute little squirrel, and yeah, well, Heavenly Father, if you would, you know, hear me here, and the little squirrel starts coming closer and closer, and I'm thinking, he is coming closer, but no way he's gonna come all the way up to me. And so I'm still talking to the Lord. And sure enough, he crosses, we have fencing up, he crawls through the fencing. Okay, Lord, he's like right by the right there. I'm he's not gonna come up on the deck. I'm still praying, thanking the Lord. He starts coming up on the deck, and here I have to say, Okay, Lord, you are definitely talking to me here, and you know, it's sending me a sign of comfort here. I kid you not, he came up the steps onto the deck close enough I could have reached out and touched him, stood up on his little hind legs, cocked his head, and looked at me. And then just as I thought he was gonna scamper away, he went down the stairs, crawled up onto the railing, and started doing his laying down and scooting across the railing right up to me. And I just started crying. I just started crying and thanking the Lord for his sense of humor and the comfort. And so that was really uh just a special moment for me. And if I would have been bowing my head and closing my eyes, I would have missed it, right?

Jack 39:26

Yeah, that's true. You'd have missed it. Great, that's so true.

Lenny 39:30

I alright, I got a story. I got it now. You got me thinking about supernatural, funny stuff like that. So Melissa would remember back and my past because when I first met Melissa, I was starting to kind of stray away from drugs and alcohol and all kinds of destructive things. It was starting to grow up a little bit, but I was still having some issues with coming to terms with that. And I worked with guys that were still doing it, they were my friends, and so I was in this really crazy turmoil in my young life at what 23, where I wanted a business of my own so bad, because that was only the way I was gonna get out of the workplace that I was in that had all the tensions and pressures to do things that I shouldn't be doing. And I was overcoming, nonetheless. You had to let everybody know I'm Christian, no, I don't do that stuff.

Melissa 40:27

So and then I think they tortured you all the more.

Lenny 40:30

I wasn't perfect, so one day it happened. I I relapsed and I just felt so horrible. And here I am, like I'm I'm stoned and I'm praying. I have all this inner turmoil going on, and these guys are three of us gathered around talking by a staircase, and I don't even remember hearing anything that was being said. In my mind, I was in this deep prayer, just crying out to the Lord because I was so upset that I had given in. Yeah, because I'd done so well before that, and I gave in. I'm like, Lord, help me. I I I need you to show me that you're here with me, and I need you to show me that you're on my side. I I'm just freaking out, I feel so horrible. And I go to pull my five-in-one tool, the painter's tool, uh, with like a handle and a blade at the end with all these little gadgets. I go to pull it out of my pocket. I think uh one of the guys said, Can I see your five in one for something? And I'm oh whatever. You know, I grab it on my pocket, it flies out of my hand and literally goes onto the baluster. I don't know if you're familiar with the staircase baluster, but it's got the round knob that sticks up at the top. It lands on this baluster and starts spinning around and did like probably like 50 rotations in front of all three of us, and we were all under the influence, but I saw it, and it was like immediately after I'd been praying, and it totally just blew my mind. My mouth, my jaw dropped. I looked at those guys and they looked at me, and then they just changed the subject and started talking about something else, and I was just like, oh my god, I cannot believe that just happened. And I was so encouraged. I was just like the presence of the Lord just showing me that he was there because I was just torn, and those things don't happen every day, but you don't really forget it. That was insane. That thing just started whirling perfectly balanced on this spindle. Wow, it was just completely mind-blowing.

Melissa 42:38

That's so much mercy that he shows us because we don't have to have those signs, we don't need them. Like Jack was saying, he's right here next to us, right there, always. And he doesn't have to prove that ever. And but how merciful and loving, you know, sometimes when you just the Lord could give me an extra reminder of your hope and your and he'll send you something funny or something amazing. And anybody else could say that's a coincidence, but you know, you've been listening to waking up to grace.

Lenny 43:16

Find a companion study and continue the conversation waking up to grace God. Remember if the work is finished, rest confidence is Christ.