Lenny 0:02

Welcome to Waking Up to Grace, where we cut through religious noise, look honestly at scripture, and return to the simplicity of Christ. I'm Lenny. Let's get into it.

Jack 0:18

Lenny's story about you two and the church is so true. It took us about two and a half years. I shared this with Lenny earlier, to really feel comfortable not going to church on Sunday. Two and a half years. Wow. I also think that there's a point in time where we need to be alone. We need to feel that isolation. And I think that stirs the hunger in us about fellowship. Because we're like, nobody's around. There's nobody I can fellowship with. Now I did have a small group when we left the church. I was still leading the small group, so it transitioned. And some of the folks in the small group fellowship with us now. So we did have that happening, but it was happening in my life at such a rapid pace that, quite frankly, was very difficult for folks to transition. That happens. It just happens because of what I had gone through was different than what everybody, you know, people are so used to following, so they follow. But when you go to a place, one week you're saying, okay, here's the thought of the week, and we're going to talk about this, and you know, all this the typical Bible study type scenario, even though mine was a little looser. So the next week of saying, you know what, I'm not a leader. I'm not a leader. We're all leaders. So what do you got for me? That's terrifying. Because now everybody's got to contribute. They think that that contribution has got to be pre-planned. It has to be something that they pondered on and soaked on, so they can bring some element of truth that would edify the rest of the members of the body. That's all sounds nice, but in reality, it's few words shared while we're together from the heart that transitions us. We don't have to have anything other than when you come together. All said when you come together. Everything else just sort of appears, doesn't it? Just like it is now. It just sort of appears. And that's the mystery. That's the mystery.

Lenny 2:08

Yes. It doesn't go without tensions and struggles of its own. You know, you look at some of the issues in the church, it wasn't always about the teaching.

Melissa 2:16

It was about the factions among us.

Lenny 2:19

It was about conduct, it was about behavior that was way unfaithful at times, and people were probably, my guess would be stuck in that kind of a mind frame where, like with the Moral Brother in Corinthians. I don't think it just started out where something happened and Paul's like, get him out of there. Yep. You know, there was probably a thing that led up to that. He probably knew the people was hearing from people, and there was probably a lot more storyline to that whole thing that evolved. That's not like a commonplace thing that happened in the church.

Jack 2:49

You're right.

Lenny 2:49

Get him out of here. But even that, the whole purpose was to bring him back around. It was never to get him out of there. He was damaging people around him. The mindset was becoming, let's take pride in this filthy thing. And so it needed some attention.

Jack 3:04

Yes. Well, I I think that the short side of everything is really the fact that God brings us to a point of frustration where we see the compromise and then we look for the alternative. Then when we find the alternative, we're like, are you sure this is the alternative? And then when we experience the alternative, uh, it's like when I went finally went back into an actual church sanctuary after leaving for a couple years. It was for some other event for someone else. You know, I went to celebrate somebody else doing something. And oh, it was a it was a Christmas show, that's what it was. We go in, I walk in. As soon as they walk into church, it's like, oh, I hope this is short. Just walking down the pews. You know, I've done that for over 60 years, walk down those pews. And as I walk down those pews, it's like, oh, see that? They're hurting us in. I feel like I'm being herded in my cabin. I feel like and now I've got to sit down, and now we have to be quiet because somebody else is more important than me has got to speak. I mean, just the whole thing. It's the whole thing. It's not one thing. It's the whole thing. And because I had experienced God's grace and knew that this was not what God intended. Because imagine God is saying, This is who I am. You are submissive to me. You do as I'm told, and you do as you're told, and you listen to the guy who says he knows what I want, and you do what he says. I mean, you would think about it rationally.

unknown 4:32

Yeah.

Lenny 4:33

Where is that written? That's an interesting relationship with God.

Jack 4:37

Wait a second. I can commune with my father. I have the Spirit of God within me. I'm a new creation. I don't need any of this stuff. I have no need that anyone would teach me.

Lenny 4:47

It's funny that you mentioned Christmas, uh, you know, because that was that was kind of a time when we we would also, you know, sort of compromise yearly at Christmas. And I uh it all started with the idea started with me thinking, like, okay, you get together with your family at Christmas, right? And let's say you get together and then somebody suggests, hey, why don't we go to church? And what would I say? And I just thought, what do you mean? What are you going there for? What do you mean? It's like the first question that comes to my mind. And, you know, like, how do you say that unoffensively? It's just like, well, how about have you ever considered what the early church would do right now? Would they go somewhere and be entertained and watch church on TV? Or would they gather as a family and express themselves in Christ? What have you learned this year? What did Christ do in your life this year? And it's it's a neat thing because our our views that we have on what Christmas might be like if it was spent well as a family, we kind of did a mix of that with Melissa's dad. You know, they were going to church at the time, we weren't, yeah, but we joined them and uh at the Christmas thing, and I felt exactly like you did.

Jack 6:03

And it's too bad. I mean, it's not it's you know, the thing about it's so amazing about races, it's not wrong. It's not wrong. We can if you want to go to church every week, you can do that.

Lenny 6:14

We'd go there, and then when we came back, we would sit as a family. Patty would prepare the pasta dinner, and we would sit as a family, he'd open up his Bible, he'd read, you know, the story of Christmas from Luke, and we would go around with a candle in the dark and share what Christ has done in our lives this year, some of the moments that were memorable, and we'd share with each other. That's community, and I just think, why aren't we doing that on the holidays instead of going and entertaining ourselves? And you can see why televangelists became on the rise because church is like watching TV. Why don't you just do it at home? Why even go? Kind of silly. We really looked forward to Christmas at Melissa's dad's, and we missed that really a lot now looking back. But that was something special. We didn't just go to church. I'd never experienced anything like that before, and I always thought that was really cool.

Jack 7:10

We don't live in this right and wrong realm anymore. We live in life and death. And we can choose things, and as we choose those things, it's it's like all of a sudden, uh, I don't know any of you guys, but I don't never really like macaroni and cheese. I know that's like a cardinal sin in the world. But the reason I didn't like macaroni and cheese is because my mom and dad used to go away every Wednesday. My dad was a cattle dealer, and so he went to the sale on Wednesday, so came home, and my sister cooked, and that's all she could cook. So we had macaroni and cheese. And my sister can't cook. She sounds like my sister. So it was always burned macaroni and cheese. That's why carried it. So over the years, you know, it was like I really don't. Every once in a while, I I mean I'd eat it, but it wasn't my favorite because it always brought back that memory, right? You know, just the way it is. Like, oh, burn macaroni and cheese. I mean, that's but you know what? Yeah. Now it's you know, now it's 50 years later. And I like macaroni and cheese. And that same thing happens as we walk in grace. There's some tough times that we go through at the beginning, but then all of a sudden, God's grace becomes evident in our life, and we start to realize all the threats and all the fears and all the anxiety about things we can let go of. We only hold on to them because we choose to. It's our choice. Grace gives us a choice. Jesus gave us a choice. It was so nice that you allowed me the thing about Bruce Morgan Lenny uh to put that on because I actually, you know, he had quite an effect on me early on in my life. And he'd be in a church now, a church building, he'd say, it's amazing how many people like to hold on to their garbage. Can you imagine if everybody came in there holding their household trash in a garbage bag in their in their lap? And I would go around and I would say, Oh, hey, give me your garbage. And they say, No, no, no, I don't want, I don't want to give you my garbage. I love my garbage. And that's so truly grace helps us unload that trash in our life that we think is so vital because we have aligned our identity with tradition instead of recognizing God's grace.

Lenny 9:24

To that effect, gathering together with people genuinely as a group outside of a corporate structure where you're genuinely gathering and getting to know each other produces a better environment for honoring the Lord. Yes. Because we start to learn from each other. That was the whole point of the church. That's the whole point that Paul was frustrated with that brother, you know, in Corinth for his conduct. Because it's like you you're setting people back here. We are really building each other up. We're doing things to build each other up, not tear down. All that aside, you wouldn't have that situation in a corporate church because those people would be silently doing whatever they do.

Len 10:05

Well, like when you were talking earlier about fear and seclusion, I think things like this helps wipe that away. Because here you feared it and held it inside for so long, now you actually are getting a chance to get it out. And it clears your mind. Yes, it clears your heart.

Lenny 10:26

Yes. And you hear people, if you listen to any of the other Grace guys podcasting, you always hear them say it at some point. Thank you for letting me vent. I've been thinking all week about this and needed to get it out. This is an outlet. Everybody that's doing podcasting that knows Grace, it's an outlet. So we're trying to be an outlet for others too, not just our own.

Len 10:49

Well, you you gotta, everybody's gotta get it out there. Sometimes it just can change a whole person's interaction because they'll hold stuff in forever and ever instead of ever just letting it out. You gotta let life out and share. Yes. Amen.

Melissa 11:07

Amen.

Lenny 11:07

Yeah, you want to be transparent. I remember Melissa's dad said something to that effect. We were getting together, and he said, You want to be living a transparent life because sin hides in the dark.

Jack 11:19

Yeah, and it'll lead you up. Yeah, and also Jesus said, you know, out of your belly is gonna flow rivers of living water. I did this little thing a while ago called overflow, and it was like, listen, you've got to think about overflow. So many people want to do all these things, uh, missions, sharing the gospel, all this stuff, and they have all these seminars and everything about how to do that. Let me tell you something. The woman at the well, she was working on overflow. She was so full she could not contain what Christ had done in her life. That's evangelism. Evangelism is taking what Christ has done in us. The Spirit of God swells up, we are amazed at what's happening in us, and we have to share it. That's overflow. And just what just what you guys are talking about.

Lenny 12:04

How do we learn those things from talking to each other? Exactly right. You learn from me, people learn from that experience. And that's why I think the conversation matters because people hear it and they're like, oh, I can do that. Exactly. That's exactly right. I don't need a degree to do what these guys are doing. This is fun, and then I can do it.

Melissa 12:24

Okay, and to that point, you mentioned about the spiritual gifts and everybody being essential. We would have so much more of that, I believe, if people really realized. My translation said that every part of the body is indispensable.

Jack 12:40

Yeah.

Melissa 12:41

And when I looked that up, every part of the body is absolutely essential, necessary, vital, and needful. So if every single person realized that right where they're at right now, without any schooling or further uh teaching needed, right where they're at right now, if we all realize that we were vital, absolutely essential, we might be more confident to speak and Yes.

Lenny 13:08

Oh Melissa, that is golden. That's awesome. Right? Yeah, as podcasters, we try to be wordsmiths, I think, you know, but that's not necessary. It's not necessary.

Jack 13:20

No, it's it's what happens when we uh are created within. God creates within with his words, and those words then become evident as they as they come through us. Because, you know, there's we say this so much and we use uh Paul's writings as an example, but no one I mean, think about how amazing God is in the fact that He has created so many people that none are alike, but you know, the snowflake thing. But not only that, the experiences that they go through are not unalike. So none of us have gone through the same experiences in our life that's formed us into what we are right now. That's the gold that's within us that's ready to be shared with folks around us. We don't know. We have no idea. Any timing, it's it's all those things. I mean it's amazing. And we are so privileged to be able to recognize that in our lives. One thing grace does, and when I talk grace, I'm always saying it's Jesus and what he's done and the spirit of God and God's plan. That's great. He takes all the competition away, and the more we recognize individually our importance to him, he says to me, Jack, I love you. I love you with an everlasting love. You are my favorite son. He says that to me. He says the same thing to Melissa and to Lenny, but he's God, he can do it. We can't live in that. You know, we we have our favorite nephew, and we have our favorite this and favorite that, and we have our children, we love them, and and they're all our favorites type of thing, and we be careful not to say those type of things, you know. But the point is, God can do it. I can be his favorite son, and I am.

Lenny 15:05

Now I have to believe it. We were talking to that effect too in the last several weeks. Knowing that, about how much you're loved by your father and how much he values relationship. How tragic is it if we go through life and only believe what we're told about our father from a pew somewhere?

Jack 15:28

Yeah.

Lenny 15:29

Or compare it and contrast it with leaders of our day, and never really seek out for ourselves who he is, what he is pleased by, you know, what makes him tick. I think it's fascinating because God is not emotionless. And I think sometimes when we first come to grace we think that God turned off the emotions and just looks at us like Ray Charles would see somebody. I see Jesus! It's all I see. Yeah. I see Jesus, and suddenly nothing matters. Our relationship doesn't even matter at that point because he just sees Jesus, and we just do whatever we feel like doing, let's say, and we never really pursue what he cares about or anything like that. That's not relationship. And that's maybe a relationship for a young child at first, but I think a lot of what we see in the letters of the apostles um encouraging people into maturity, sometimes even a little bit abrasively, like you guys shouldn't be infants still go on to maturity because they were treating the Lord almost like an infant would, you know, not really valuing their relationship. Why are you guys doing this? You know what I mean? It's not like a huge heaping burden of guilt. In my journey, I've come to realize that seems to equate with maturity. Like how much you value your relationship with the Lord is something that happens with maturity, I think.

Melissa 17:08

Yeah, like when I was growing up, it makes me think about my relationship with my mom and dad. I always knew they loved me and they put so much effort into the relationship, and I just took, took, took and enjoyed all the love. But as I got older, I wanted to know them, and I started calling them, and I started asking them questions about their life and to try to learn more about them. That shows maturity and that made for beautiful relationships. It was both sided. Is that what you're saying?

Lenny 17:39

Yeah. And I think that as we value our relationship with the Father, our relationships around us reflect that and they change. I think in the body of the church, the more we value our father, the more we value each other.

Len 17:54

Exactly. Well, like when you think of life, how much I know this has been said before, but like God has so many children throughout the world, and you think, what makes me different than any of them? And you gotta remember, each and one of us was born with a purpose, and we have touched so many different lives. If you sit down and really think back, all the people you know and how many lives you've touched, and how many lives they've touched, it's overwhelming because there's no end. It's like God's love. There's no end.

Lenny 18:30

Mm-hmm. He likes relationship and so he likes our attention. He likes when we ask him what we should do. He likes when we're actually maybe a little concerned about something we're gonna do, I'd say, and like, should I be doing this? Yeah. You know, is this gonna be good for me? Yeah. What's good for our relationship? If we look at it as a relationship, which it really just is, any good relationship is going to benefit from mutual relations and communications. I think that's really more important than anything. It's not the legalism, it's the relationship. We don't want an ignorant relationship with our father, not a selfish one where we shape him into something he's not. You know, like I'm saying it because I've seen it and I've even experienced those ideas in my head when I first understood grace, like Ray Charles God, I see Jesus no matter what I see, but he doesn't love bad behavior. You know, he's a righteous God, he doesn't love unfaithfulness. We see in in scripture that sin was eradicated, but we also see it mentioned. Paul says everything that doesn't come from faith is sin. There is a relationship, it's never broken by our behavior. It's not we're out of fellowship or in fellowship, but if we come together transparently as a church, I think we help each other in that sense.

Melissa 19:54

Yeah.

Lenny 19:55

Because we help each other through anything, even if it's just a misconception. You know, if I start sounding legalistic, somebody could say, Well, yeah, yeah, see what you're saying, but you gotta be careful because we can't make this a grace meter.

Jack 20:09

Yeah.

Lenny 20:09

But we gotta talk on it, and I think that those were the most difficult conversations, probably even for the apostles. How do we deal with sin gracefully when it's becoming a problem? And when is it becoming a problem?

Jack 20:22

Yeah.

Lenny 20:23

How do you meter that? When is a fellowship being harmed by somebody's sin? Like it was in Corinth? And when is it just we just need to be gentle about this and encourage, right?

Melissa 20:36

We've been talking a lot about that, and that's why we were thinking maybe we would ask the group's opinion next week, huh?

Lenny 20:42

Yeah.

Melissa 20:43

Yeah.

Lenny 20:44

Am I drifting?

Melissa 20:45

A little.

unknown 20:46

Okay.

Lenny 20:47

Just tell me.

Jack 20:49

It happens to everybody. Well, the thing is though, that that just proves that the gathering is stimulating. Yeah. You know, it's like we are thinking about what's being said, and we're also building on what's being said and reflecting on what's being said as it's being said. That's huge. That's part of the yeah, that's the part of the mechanism of the body that's vital. That's why you can get together and not have to necessarily need a specific topic because the topic will come. It will be there, it will arise. And that's magic.

Lenny 21:22

Yeah, you've been listening to Waking Up to Grace. Find the companion study and continue the conversation at wakingup to grace.com. Remember the work has finished and breath confidently in Christ and keep waking up to grace.