Lenny 0:02

Welcome to Waking Up to Grace, where we cut through religious noise, look honestly at scripture, and return to the simplicity of Christ. I'm Lenny. Let's get into it. So, really, the episode just starts with what's been on my heart for the past several weeks. Um, Melissa and I have been talking about this a lot. When we began our ministry, we started out, we were talking as a group, you know, and we had a group of people talking, and things kind of shifted and changed, and now they've turned back, and it's really neat how the Lord will bring us back to things that we started with.

Melissa 0:43

Mm-hmm.

Lenny 0:44

This whole idea is really neat because one week, I don't know, one day there was just like a strong urge, it was like, okay, something something has to be done here, and our we need to do something in our ministry that involves the church in some way. Because the world doesn't need another Christian podcast. Essentially, you start to think about it's like, where am I in all this? Who needs another Christian podcast? And well, it's not really that we need another Christian podcast, it's there was something else missing.

Melissa 1:17

You wanted more than just one person speaking.

Lenny 1:20

Yeah, and that's essentially what happened along the way, is it evolved into me teaching, and I learned a lot, it was awesome. I don't at all regret that, but I find myself speaking to a microphone, and there's something missing there. I've just come to understand the greater problem in the church today isn't what's being taught. And that's a strong statement, because if anybody's listened to my podcast, you know that I'm very adamant about what's being taught. Years ago, a friend of mine, his take was like it's not the church, it's what's being taught that needs fixing. I think the biggest problem in church today is what we see as the church today. And it's the things that we've been talking about in the last several episodes. It's how we're learning, it's the environment we're learning in that's actually suppressing the truth. And it's a silent suppression. I know in my personal experience going to church, once I started realizing a truth that was outside of Orthodox teaching, I immediately started recognizing that the people around me didn't really care too much to hear about what I had to say. We further realized that the leaders of the organization not only didn't really want to hear it, but they didn't really want that to get out. We went to the church, right, Melissa. We went to the church and we continued to go after we came to the truth. We started realizing the truth, right? And then we we started feeling really um torn.

Melissa 3:01

Like Jack had said, too, you feel like you don't really know what to do with yourself, so you keep going to the church because you think that's what you're supposed to do. Yes. We gotta change our minds on that, right?

Lenny 3:13

Well, yeah. So we decide, well, we're gonna keep going and we're gonna I'm gonna talk to the pastor. So we stopped him. Uh we waited till, you know, I don't know what the best way to handle these things are. I was young and just really motivated, and so we waited till after the service, and he came out with a group of people in black around him following him around. I don't know if they were the sound guys or just bodyguards, but when I approached him, it was like, Pastor Jim, I got a question for you about the message today. And it was about 1 John 1 9. You know, how do you know that 1 John 1 9 was written as instruction to believers? How do you know that? And everybody turned around and picked that question, didn't you? Yeah. Everybody turned around and looked at me, including the bodyguards, as if I was like, I kind of felt like a terrorist threat at that point. I was like, whoa, what did I say? And I'm not armed, but I do have truth. Um, but but then he turned around and his words were, trust me, it is. And then he turned around and walked away. And we're winding back quickly, it all emerged from a couple's group that decided they didn't want to talk about the issue anymore when it was presented by somebody who came into the group with the idea that we didn't have to ask for forgiveness to be forgiven. And so the group decided, as a group, no, we're following our structure, our study guides, we're not addressing that. And that's when I had to say, well, I I gotta leave then. You guys are you're not interested in pursuing what is true and right. You're not even wanting to look at it. The leaders told the person just to not be part because they were invited momentarily and they weren't a couple, so the corporate structure didn't allow for this member to have a conversation with us, so that ended that very quickly and abruptly. But then further, I wanted to keep talking about, and another friend of mine lined up this thing with a sports pastor was the next thing that we were allowed to talk to about it, the sports pastor. And the sports pastor did his best, I think. But everything that happened when there was any kind of um disagreement or not seeing eye to eye, or whatever you'd want to call it, where the a solution couldn't be resolved from the text, the answer was always it's in my seminary notes somewhere, but I don't know where they're at. And so we peacefully ended it, and that was that. But then fast forwarding back to that moment in the church, we were really not knowing what to do because we had gone to church for so many years. Melissa was raised going to church. I was raised, you know, more Catholic, we weren't like the regular attendees, but you saw church as a thing. And it's like you were the more you churched, the more devoted you were, right? I think we all had that sense. Yeah. So I started going to this Protestant church with Melissa, and it took right away. I can see the future. If I would have kept going there, I would have just probably gone up the ladder. Long story short, um, we both pray about it. And I'm praying really hard. I mean, just like just truly like a desperate prayer, because it it hurts not knowing what to do in these cases, feeling like I should be somewhere on Sunday. This this doesn't feel right. So I'm this was a serious prayer, not just me like, well, Lord, flip a coin, what do you want me to do? I it was desperate for me. It's like, help me, Lord, to know. And we kept going back and forth. It was getting a little old, not being able to decide every week. Should we go? Should we not go? And so I said, you know what? I'm just gonna pray about it. Let's go. It's been a year. Let's go and see what happens and pray for a sign. Well, we get there, and the first topic on the agenda was the fellowship issue with first John and forgiveness, and you know, all the things that we had last left off with over there about being out of fellowship, and then get this on top of that. It was the the week that they preached the tithe, and going above and above and beyond, besides, and he was trying to help people for one by sharing that you log your sins and keep track of them in a journal, that way you can keep your sin life more organized. That's what I do, he said in a very pious way. And your immediate thought is look to the front, and that's piousness, you know. But he continues and he says, Nobody can really say that they don't have the money to tithe. You know, the typical things if you want this blessing that God promises from the tithe, you gotta figure this out. We'll help you budget your money. And here's five things that you can do to help yourself save money so that you can do the tithe the way that essentially you should. So we were in the painting industry at the time, now we do more cabinet stuff, but we were basically painting houses. Number one on the list this week to save money, to be able to tithe to your church, paint your house yourself. Nobody needs to hire a house painter to paint their house.

Melissa 8:43

So basically, what you're saying is we were getting a clear indication that we weren't supposed to keep a tent.

Lenny 8:51

Well, what would you do? What a week to go.

Len 8:54

Well, that puts you out of business.

Melissa 8:57

Right.

Len 8:58

That would put you out of business if everyone's down to paint their houses themselves. Right.

Lenny 9:01

It put them in business and me out of business. And I was like, okay.

Jack 9:06

And you're still supposed to tithe. Yeah, exactly.

Lenny 9:11

So that was an interesting experience. It was just an experience, but that was the experience I had when I prayed to the Lord for my answer on whether or not I should leave religious obligation behind in my life or continue to try to pursue it in some sense. Wow. Yeah.

Melissa 9:33

Between seeing our pastor looking like a celebrity on the red carpet that wanted nothing to do with us and not caring if we understood scripture or not, just telling us to trust him, which is not at all biblical. You didn't see Paul say that. He told the Bereans to go back and look if what he said was true. Yeah. So between that and then the the messages just continuing to um not be fruitful coming from the pulpit there. We we got our answer, right?

Len 10:06

Not to go backwards, but what's a sports pasture?

Lenny 10:11

That's a good question. That's a great question. What is it?

Jack 10:16

He wears sweat clothing all the time.

Lenny 10:18

He wears he always wears a cub's hat and a berry sweatshirt.

Jack 10:23

They're original though.

Len 10:29

I thought maybe it was the one you go to pray for for games, so who wins is that.

Melissa 10:33

There you go. That's good.

Len 10:35

You know, what the sports pastor, I never heard of that. That's hilarious.

Lenny 10:39

But truthfully, it was that, um, and I actually was a part of a softball team. I never saw him taking action in any of that. We'd pray before we played sports. Okay. And somehow he must have told people how to do that. Um maybe we needed some help, but I I wasn't like in the lead of all that. I was just on the team, and the guy that was on the lead always seemed to know how to open the prayer. Maybe that's where that came in.

Jack 11:07

Yeah, the seminar. He went to the weekend retreat. Yeah. Yeah.

Lenny 11:12

So, to my point, we talk about church structure in the way that we do, and I and I think a lot of times people would hear what we're saying and just say, Well, I'm in a small group. That's how we do this gathering thing. But what happens in what my experience was in the small group is that it's just a branch off of the top-down structure. It's not anything individual where you express yourselves in any meaningful way in Christ. What I see taking place is that church has become like a television. We watch the teacher at the front express himself in Christ, and then we kind of go home. And then if we join a small group, we're like the Siskel and Eberts of that television show that was on that week, which was the climax of the week, the sermon, and then we talk in light of that. But nobody's talking about what was on the other channels, it's only what was tuned in to their station.

Jack 12:13

Yeah.

Lenny 12:13

And if you go outside of that channel, you're you're kind of like like the Buffalo Springfield song, step out of line, the men come and take you away.

Melissa 12:23

Yeah.

Lenny 12:24

Like, can you uh tone that down, sir? We don't talk like that around here. And it gets kind of weird and kind of dicey. And if anybody doubts this, then try it. Try to express yourself in those environments. And I made that challenge in the past. And I actually have a friend of mine, Dan, who was passionate enough to pursue those things because he loves people at his church.

Jack 12:50

Sure.

Lenny 12:51

And it was so encouraging. I should probably share it. I got a message from him that was heartbreaking and inspiring. I reached out to him to touch base because it had been a while. And, you know, like, how are you doing? What's going on? And it took a couple times because in the right away, like I the Lord seems to be surrounding me with other people who are struggling in these times, you know, that we are, and uh, it's just fascinating. Where you're just like, okay, something's going on. And so he he finally gets back to me and I'm kind of cringing, waiting for the news because this is what happened with Dave not that long ago, right? Like, why is he not responding? And this just troubling stuff. So anyways, he says, Hey Lenny, I'm sorry that I haven't responded lately. All I can say is I'll be glad when this year's in the rearview mirror. He had the LOL, uh, just kinda chuckling probably in just a way like, you know, laughing because this is so ridiculous. Um The wife's double mastectomy in my three trips to the ER, and three times in the hospital I'll have a ninety nine percent blocked artery, and slipping in stint to fix it. But all's good now. Our little church group in Alden has been finally gathering around a table a couple times a month, instead of the old fashioned full blown liturgical worship services. I think our pastor is beginning to enjoy this format, which is less work on his part, and the others are finally beginning to open up and actually speak. So time will tell if this will continue and hopefully replace what was the norm. I'm happy for you that your ministry is evolving. I've been catching all your podcasts and have noticed subtle changes now and then and have enjoyed listening to the others share, which is great. I truly feel that the Lord is behind all this going on. He's finally had enough of what was, and is raising up what it will be and should have been all along. Paul's letters are continuing to make more and more sense just on how easy it is to mess things up, just the way some even in his day did. It's my hope that as fall and winter approach, things on my side will slow down to where I can finally meet you, your wife, and the rest of the group. Until that day, continue to stay strong and keep on keeping on. Blessings of peace and grace to you, Melissa and the others. Wow. You can see that he's on the same exact page we are about the church. And he's doing it. He's actually had an impact on his small church over there. He's not too far away. We keep talking about we're gonna get together. He's actually not that far away. And he found us through our podcast. He's like 45 minutes from us. Really? And I was like, how cool is that? You know, the Lord's doing something, and to me, another thing that happened to me in the midst of all this, we were talking like we gotta do something where we were getting together as a group and doing what the church does, you know. And I go in one of the comments you made, Jack, you know, just saying, hey, good episode or whatever, you know, we found each other that way. Yeah, you didn't say, hey, look at my podcast and anything, but I was just curious and inquisitive. I'm like, huh, he has a website. I wonder what it is. And you know, lo and behold, I go on your website and you had a thing going, like an outreach. You were trying to get people together to connect people in their local area in grace in the community. And I was like, he's doing exactly what I'm trying to do. That was like the end goal of this whole entire ministry when we started. We were inviting people onto the conference call and trying to figure out how to do that, and you know, and along the way, you realize like this is really actually not that easy to get people to find you in this world of the internet. Much harder than I thought, even though I have a business and I should know. But yeah, you you would understand, Jack, as a you know, business person. You go in, you may think it was gonna be easier than it was, but you don't stop. You know, we don't give up. I just wanted to take this moment to help people to realize that what waking up to grace is to me and was all along is an outreach to get people together in grace, to reveal grace to people that don't understand it or have it or know that they have it in most cases, know that what's already theirs, but then to get these people together in some way. And so right now there's an open invitation to join us. If you go on my website at wakinguptograce.com, you go in the menu tab and you see this join the conversation, and it tells you how to join on Zoom. You can reach me on my contact forum, we can go from there and figure this thing out. As long as that page is up, you're invited. And what I see coming to fruition in all of this is a community coming together, and who knows how it's gonna the Lord's gonna organize this stuff, but I know Jack's on the same page, yeah, and we're willing to help, and we want to hear from you. And Melissa said something that was so important this last week. She says, I'm looking up this word at the end of the spiritual gifts thing that we were talking about, that every member is essential.

Len 18:18

Yeah, that's good.

Lenny 18:19

Every member is essential in the body, and I'll let you describe it, but I just wanted to steal that from you for a moment, just in saying that our listeners aren't just listeners, you guys are members of the body and you're essential. We don't just want you to call in, join us, ask questions. We need you. Because if you see how this thing is going on, this this group is building on something that, as Jack said before, I think we started recording, that's the magic of the church. Yeah, and I think that we can build on this through this podcast. What do you guys think?

Melissa 18:57

I think it's incredible that the Lord brought three different individuals from around the world together who are trying to do the same exact thing. Yeah. That's a big deal. That's not a coincidence, right?

Jack 19:10

No, that's grace. Yeah.

Melissa 19:12

That's grace.

Jack 19:13

That's grace. Yeah. So it's uh really overwhelming. One of the things that uh in the vision that I believe that God has given us is the difference between what man has tried to do and what we're trying to accomplish. I know everybody always says they're different, everybody always says they're unique. That's why there's over 40,000 different religions in the world and all that stuff. But we're not trying to establish anything. We're just hoping that folks can respond to God's grace and then be able to interact with one another. There's no tear above that. Everything else will happen according to what the Spirit has designed in Ephesians 2 10. And if you have the faith, if we have the faith, and we do, I'm just using that as a term to allow that to happen. We're just recognizing the body of Christ on earth. I think that's so huge. There's no need to manage, and no need to you know anything like that. All it is is like, hey, did you know that John down the street has been struggling with being isolated because he realizes there's so much that's misguided about his life going to church, and he's decided not to go to the conventional church any longer. But he understands grace and he wants to be able to interact in a grace-laden atmosphere with someone else, and come to find out three houses up, John has gone through the same thing. The rest is whatever they do. I mean, that's amazing, isn't it? I think it's amazing, and that's all we want to do. We just want to be able to be a billboard of faith, a billboard that says, Hey, this God thing is so real that we don't have to manipulate it or offer programs, anything like that. All we have to do is introduce you.

Lenny 21:15

But the biggest challenge is what you and I both understand, Jack, is getting to that point. And should everybody have to go through all the efforts and works that we're going through just to be heard and to be able to connect with others? What we're working towards is trying to do some of that work and lay the foundation so that the communication is an open door, so that there's an open door for people to enter rather than have to create this whole infrastructure and know how to record, know how to build a website and all that stuff, and be able to have a place. And along the way, I think there will be people with a simple enough skill that can start a podcast, but maybe getting found is just nearly impossible. But we can help, you know, and maybe we all help each other in that way, and you have a community. Of grace growing in this thing beyond just one ministry and one opinion, you know.

Jack 22:06

I agree.

Lenny 22:07

It's not just about my opinion being out there, it's about grace building and growing as a church. And so that's what I think the primary goal is here.

Melissa 22:17

Yeah.

Len 22:17

I think the truth is out there, and that's what everybody's trying to accomplish with this. Oh man. And a lot of people just kind of fear it because they feel as though it's different. It feels a strange to them just because they're used to the old ways of doing it. A lot of generations have gone by to where you've just been pumped the same thing, same thing, same thing, and now you've waken them up to seeing what you really have, and I think sometimes it strikes a little fear into people thinking, wow, why have I missed this all my life?

Lenny 22:54

Why do I feel so much different than everybody else seems to feel? Right? You know, you go to a group and nobody else seems to see it, and you feel very alone.

Len 23:05

Yeah, exactly. I mean I mean it it's like it solos you out the way you start thinking, well, am I right or wrong? But if you really look at the whole picture, you're right. But there's always a little thing telling you, I think something's gotta be wrong. This just can't be right. It's it's just right there in front of our faces, and nobody wants to look at it.

Lenny 23:27

Yeah. And the feelings start getting in the way of I feel like I should be in church. But my mind is telling me I don't fit there. But what's the alternative? And that's exactly why what I'm saying to me is so meaningful, because there is an alternative. Yes. And it's just not there's just not enough open doors for that, for people to express themselves in these ways. And so we want to be that open door.

Melissa 23:53

And I just want to point out to the point of making things easy for people. You know there's people just sitting in the pews ready to leave the church, but wishing that there was somewhere else they could gather. Yes. Um wishing for a community of people, so they either haven't left yet, or maybe they have, but they don't know where else to go. There's plenty of people out there like that. And I wanted to point out that my dad and Patty are uh two of those people. They had terrible experiences at two different churches. They left the one because it was such a disaster, instead of trying to go back to the one like we did, and they tried a whole new church, a different kind of disaster. So then they both, still being as much a Christian as they ever were, just stopped attending. Oh my god that their faith stopped, but I know they would have liked to meet up with a group. So here's an open door where now Patty is coming, and that's really cool.

Lenny 24:52

And you you can always know that there was tension there when you walk away from doing that, going to that week weekly church, they've been doing it their whole life.

Melissa 25:00

Their whole life.

Lenny 25:01

But then changes start to take place. You start to realize, like, okay, now I'm free to be me. I don't think it's healthy to remain isolated. And I think that's the biggest problem and fear that people have when they hear this message is that's gonna make me isolated, and I think people automatically turn it off in their own minds subconsciously, oftentimes, because ooh, that's gonna put me at a really weird place where I'm not like other people and they don't understand me. It shouldn't be like welcome to my nightmare in that way. It should be welcome to our group. We express ourselves here.

Melissa 25:42

I think this is a good opportunity to get some other opinions, Lenny, because you and I were talking. Um, like I'll ask you, Jack, if somebody asks you, what church do you attend? If you're talking to somebody and you know, you say that you're a Christian, if somebody says, Do you go to church or what church do you attend, what do you say?

Lenny 26:03

Good question.

Jack 26:04

One of my podcasts talks about this as I tell a story about a guy who gets saved in the same way we're discussing now. And that is, I don't go to a church like you think church is. I believe that we're part of the body of Christ and that the people we touch around us actually are the body of Christ. The people that we deal with every day, they're they're the ones that we touch and that we have sobriality with. And as a result of that, that's the body around me. Now those people don't know it most times, but I do. And I learned that the hard way. So I don't go to church like you know. I uh get together with friends a couple times a month, we have breakfast together, and we share our lives because I've learned that church is not me going to get something, it's me going to celebrate someone. And that can be done. And in our case, we meet in a restaurant, we go in the restaurant, we're in there at like 9 30 in the morning, and we leave about 12 30, 1 o'clock. We just in that restaurant. We just have a wonderful time and we just share life. I don't have to stand up and and you know invite the whole restaurant to pray with us or any of those things. We're just part of the environment. The people in a restaurant love to see us come and we'll know them all by name and all that type of thing. So church is not where we go, church is who we are. And it doesn't need to be a day. Paul was so wise when he said that. You know, hey, some of you guys celebrate one day a week, some of you guys, it's every day. And hey, you know what? That's okay. That's alright. Because it's again another liberty that we have in Christ. Our grace is just like once it starts, it's like yeast. Jesus was good about the Pharisees with that, but it's the same with grace in my life. I find that it's so liberating in so many areas. Think about how many times in our life we say no to ourselves because of something. We don't know what the something is, we just say no to ourselves. But then all of a sudden, when grace comes in, it's like that's not a no. You don't have to have a no in that. I'm just quickly, I'm doing some so are my shorts lately. It's so funny because the shorts that I'm doing this last week are on fear and grace, and how people are afraid that if they're not limited by the fear of judgment that they don't know what to do with their lives. And that is so true. That was me. That was me. I think it was all all of us go through that. It's like we need boundaries, yeah. And God is saying, I'm your boundary, you don't need to be told what to do, and that's what's so scary about walking into grace. The fear of I don't know what to do now. I don't know what to do. I mean, I want to please God, and I've always been taught my whole life that I have to do something to please him, and now you're telling me I don't have to do anything, and I still please him. So now what do I do? How do I do what I've been told my whole life I'm supposed to do, which is please him? You can't take that away from me by telling me that I already please him because now I don't have anything to do. And so if you do, if you take that from me, now here I am standing wondering what I'm supposed to do. That is so stinking scary.

Melissa 29:31

Okay, I gotta say something. You got your story about your dad coming home with the candy bar.

Jack 29:36

Oh yeah.

Melissa 29:37

I gotta interject a quick dad story. Okay. A classic, classic dad story. I'm 18 years old, and I had a great relationship with my dad all the way through. And uh, but of course he butt heads as a teen, no doubt about that. And but I'm 18 years old, and he takes me out to celebrate my birthday, and we pull in the driveway, and we he's sitting there and he looks at me, he says, Honey, okay, now you're 18, so I can't tell you what to do anymore. And you would think that that would be the most beautiful words a teenager would ever hear. And I remember turning to him, I'm facing him, and I said, Dad, wait a minute. You're not gonna tell me what to do? How am I gonna know which way to go in life? How am I gonna know what to do? It was so terrifying. And he laughed. I was terrified. Wait a minute, I'm free, what do I do?

Lenny 30:36

What a great story. You've been listening to Waking Up to Grace. Find the companion study and continue the conversation at wakingup to grace.com. Remember, the work is finished.