SPEAKER_04 0:18

We're going to be talking about our babies saved. You want me to start? Does anybody have anything you wanted to say to get started? Any specific thoughts or questions on the topic of babies being saved?

SPEAKER_03 0:29

David studied savings.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Okay, the passage where David says, Oh, I'm not worried anymore. I'm going to be going to him, he said, right? Not him to me.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Right. Okay. He was actually so much happier when that baby died.

unknown 0:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

He was like so forlorn and, you know, weeping and crying when the baby was really sick, and as soon as the baby died, he was like so happy.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Which would be the opposite of what he thought he would be, but it's kind of like because he knew that's when he said, I would see him again.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

So that's what I'm thinking that babies are in heaven.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna definitely look at that passage. That's an interesting passage. And something that's really interesting to think about before we get started is why was everybody that knew him so surprised that he was suddenly happy about that? Is I think one of the first questions that I would ask. Why were they surprised? Because from our vantage point, as Christians, living in the age that we're living in, our first thought would be, well, he's happy because he knows he's gonna be going to heaven with him and that's where he's gonna see him again. But the difference in their thought and our thought is something that I'm gonna analyze today and see like what would they have really been thinking? I think that matters more than what we would be thinking if we were David today. And so I'll show you why historical contents can actually affect how we see scripture and how we view it. Interestingly, the first passage I'm gonna look at is that passage, Suzanne, because when when I looked it up, you know, I'm just looking it up like our babies saved. It's really pretty easy to just do a Google search and you see what people are thinking out there. I'm typing that in, 2 Samuel, is one of the first things that comes up. It's usually because they believe that babies are saved because David thought that. I've come to learn that when we're reading scripture and sometimes looking for a specific answer to a topic such as this one, that it becomes really important, in my opinion, and we'll see why as we move forward, why it might be important to try to make sure that we're looking at scripture from the vantage point of letting our minds be shaped by what the scripture is saying. As humans, we want to believe that it would only be right and just for God to save babies, right? Well, what if he didn't, though? Would that say that we don't trust him anymore and that our justice is greater than his? Or would it just say that we don't understand his justice the way he does? God's justice system is actually greater than what we know of, right? If God was actually the one that created babies in the first place, then is it also his duty to save all babies just because he created all babies? It's a tough question, you know. I mean, these are questions that nobody wants to think about. But can we really question God? If God said, no, I didn't save that baby, but I saved this one, should we have a problem with that? How are we really seeing justice, anyways? Because I don't even think we would really see ourselves through honest eyes. If we had justice based on our own views, would we even need a savior at all? Because before I became a Christian, I thought I was a pretty good person. And it wasn't until I realized that God had a greater justice system than my human mind perceived that I realized I even needed a savior. So you come to realize that God's justice system has to prevail over ours. Oh, just food for thought. I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm not saying brace yourself, babies aren't saved. I'm just saying at the end of the day, it may come down to trust. Trust that the Lord is just. Why isn't this person saved? Why did that person, for example, you know? Well, I'd love this person, and they weren't a Christian, so that's not fair. But is that really the right thing to say to a just God? You're not fair. Does that benefit us spiritually in any way? His fairness is way superior to ours from the get-go about anything that's tough to understand or tough to grasp. You know?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

So I have two things to say about that.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

For one, there's the verse, I'm not sure where it's at now, but it says about the Lord that his ways are not our ways. His ways aren't our ways, they're not. Like you said, you you thought you were a good person, you thought I would have thought I was saved in my own mind based on my the fact that I was a good person.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

I'm not a murderer, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

But God's ways are uh so far superior to ours. So there's that to think about, and then also I think about what my dad said. My dad believed in Christ wholeheartedly, and he could have said, if the Lord doesn't take away my cancer and cure me, then he must be evil. Could have said that, right? But he didn't.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Could have decided that people do.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Instead, I remember asking him about it, and or telling him I was thankful that he I could see that he was still very much trusting in the Lord, and he said, What else am I gonna do? Who else can help me? Yeah, it's just just very matter-of-factly. And I'm mom used to always say, Thy will be done before she'd go into surgery, and just trusting.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

But if he had the disciples said to Paul when he said, I'm going to Jerusalem anyways. I'm not afraid to die. And they didn't want him to go. And Paul's like, What are you doing? And then they're like, Lord's will be done. And it was done.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

So that's to your point. The Lord ultimately called my dad home to heaven. So he didn't take away the cancer. Are we to say he's evil? Of course not.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Right. And what good would it have done? If he would have decided on his justice system that I deserve to not have cancer, what good would it have done him in his life? In his grace walk? Harmed. It would have harmed him. And then in my case, before I even became a Christian, what good would it have done to for me to continue believing that I was good enough?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Harm.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Very much harm. I would have been dead. I would have had no life given to me, because I would have been accepting of God's justice system. So we don't really want to reject God's justice, no matter what, on any term. So we'd want to know the truth, and if we can't find the truth, then we just have to accept that. And so I'm just saying that starting out, it's kind of a prequel of what we might find here is that maybe we don't know. And I'm gonna be casting doubt on a passage that maybe seemed certain, but that's okay. Because I think you're gonna find that it's gonna build a better insight as to what might have really been going on there and why. And what happens in this case, I find that understanding eschatology, where we're at eschatologically, and the fulfillment of scripture affects things greatly, and like what we believe about the finished work of Christ, maybe even going all the way to the fulfillment at the second coming at his return, and the views that vary on that and how that might affect our views on this passage. And I've just come to realize how important it is in scripture understanding things in the right context and how much it changes if our views are different in certain areas, like a future return of Christ versus one that already took place, you know, because you got you know my thoughts on it. And you just you come to find that when you're reading the scripture, it changes your perception so much. I don't want to just make light of these things because it changes everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

There's choice to be had and it matters.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yeah, and it always matters. Eternal life isn't at stake here, but maybe some peace. You just come to appreciate it more from a greater vantage point. When you dig in deeper, so I thought it was pretty cool that a lot of the sites that I looked at up on the internet just admitted that they didn't know. Many of them admitted we don't have this answer, but this is why we believe babies are saved. When you look at original sin, we're born into this world what? Dead. We're born dead. So according to justice that occurred all all the way back in the beginning in Genesis, man has no right to life. We're born dead and sinned because of Adam and because of original sin. So something would have had to have changed in order for babies to automatically be saved, or God would just have to see that as just to say that, well, this baby was innocent, but they're technically not spiritually, but physically they had done nothing wrong, right? You have two kind of realms. They couldn't really do anything when they're babies, as they grow to be kids. I know of anybody that's attended grade school knows that kids are not innocent, you know, and we want to think they're safe, but you see their behavior and you're like, yikes, it's actually kind of scary. They're probably not in a good position, are they? Like, why do you think babies are cute anyway? Why are they born so cute? You ever thought about that? Like, why does God make babies cute?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yeah. It's a heartwarming feeling that gives you, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Do you ever think that maybe it was just like a defense mechanism? They're so vulnerable and helpless. So God gave them a strength. They're cute. So nobody wants to hurt it. I don't think anybody really loved killing babies unless they were psychotic. They had that mechanism.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Let's say back before Christ, people had a child and it got sick and died. Okay. Do they think in God's eyes that that was like an offering? Well, that in other words, take away their sins because of what they gave up.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Yeah, that would definitely be a corrupt view because then that would start getting into like sacrificing babies. That's what I'm getting at.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah. You know, you think of the old times versus now, what were the people's thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Well, the pagans were sacrificing babies to other gods. Oh, god. And God said, No, Israel is not going to be sacrificing babies. That's actually an interesting topic because there's there's one situation. There it was an oath. Remember? Jeff. You ever read that passage about Jeff? So Jeffith said, Lord, if you uh if you win this battle for me, I will give you as a burnt offering the first thing that comes out of my front doors when I get home. And he gets home and his young daughter comes running up to him, Dad. And it says that he did as the Lord said. And she went up on the mountain to mourn for a month about her virginity. And you're like, okay. If you analyze the passage, it's quite interesting. Why would somebody that's getting ready to be burnt alive be worried about being a virgin? It doesn't make any sense. But if you study the original language of the passage, it's actually kind of an interesting translation. And it it's one of those cases where knowing the original language can be quite helpful because you study it in the Hebrew language. That word, um one of the words that were used to say offer up as a burnt offering, it was a burnt offering or another kind of offering. The original language didn't limit it to having to put her on a skewer and burn her. She was dedicated to the Lord is what was most likely happening. And you start looking, and there's very little written on it, but temple virgins were a thing, and you saw indications of women dedicating their lives to God. So dedicated to Yahweh. But he was just in tears about it, too. And you're like, well, why was he so in tears? His daughter's just gonna be a virgin forever. It was a big deal because he was a king. He had no more lineage, he was his only daughter. So what you see going on there in this one little verse that looks like the Yahweh took him up, well, it was an oath, you have to follow this, burn your daughter. It was actually not that kind of oath. If you look at it and you study, there was actually an alternative that it could have been, and it would have been him letting her offer her life to the Lord. It wasn't really a happy moment because she didn't really necessarily want to be a virgin, he didn't necessarily want to have a daughter not carry on his lineage. But he, you know, that was that was what took place, and that was a great sacrifice for him as a king. And I I kind of think that maybe it was just a humbling thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

That's an excellent example why the truth really matters in scripture. Yeah, it's easy to just read it and oh, and just run with it. But I think we need to be thinking why would God want him to do that with his daughter? Like, I gotta investigate this a little more.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

And then we get to know who our father really is. We get to really learn about him.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Right?

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Yeah, because I mean they would have understood the law. It would have just been really odd to even end up in that situation in the first place, knowing that they understood all the ramifications of the law fully. And then you're just like, oh no, even people say, like Yahweh said he had to fulfill that oath because it's a law. And so it was okay with Yahweh that he fulfilled that oath, but then broke the other oath that Yahweh said, I am not happy with human offerings, I don't want human sacrifice. So the Lord's like, oh, I guess I'm pinned here, and I have to go with the other. That just makes no sense. That's just how little we understand the Hebrew culture. And even the language sometimes. Looking at the full context matters. Uh just looks it up quickly on the internet about babies being saved. And uh gotquestions.org always pulls up right away. He says uh about babies being saved. Before people mature enough to discern right from wrong, sometimes called reaching the age of accountability, it would seem that they're not held responsible by God. Toddlers sin and they bear Adam's corrupt nature, but lacking the ability to understand the concept of right and wrong, they're under God's grace, in our opinion. Other biblical antidotes, David testifying that he would be reunited with his dead child after death, support the reasonable belief that infants go to heaven right when they die. The same holds true for those with mental disabilities who cannot comprehend right and wrong. I like the answer, but as far as what scripture testifies, I call it a reach. So let's look at Second Samuel and let's see what it says and let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

And the Lord sent Nathan to David. He came to him and said to him, There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. The rich men had very many flocks and herds, but the poor man had nothing but one little ew lamb, which he had bought, and he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children. It used to eat of his morsel and drink from his cup and line and his arms. It was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveller to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the guests who had come to him. But he took the poor man's lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him. Then David's anger was greatly kindled against the man, and he said to Nathan, As the Lord lives, the man who has done this deserves to die, and he shall restore the lamb fourfold because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. Nathan said to David, You are the man. Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul, and I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah? And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun. David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin, you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die. Then Nathan went to his house, and the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. Therefore David sought God on behalf of the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground, and the elders of his house stood beside him to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died, and the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive we spoke to him and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him, The child is dead, he may do himself some harm? But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead, and David said to his servants, Is the child dead? They said he is dead. Then David arose from the earth and washed, and anointed himself, changed his clothes, and he went into the house of the Lord and worshipped. He then went to his own house, and when he asked, they set food before him and he ate. Then his servant said to him, What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died you arose and ate food. He said, While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, and the child may live? But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

As we can kind of see, that's a pretty loaded passage there. You literally experience the Lord afflicting David's child, and you're just like, whoa. It's kind of fascinating to me that people ignore that part in the context usually when they're saying like what we just read from gotquestions.org, they don't mention the part where God afflicted that baby in the first place, because we don't really want to think about that. But it's kind of interesting to me that the passage that supports infants being saved is also a passage showing that the Lord used that as a judgment against David, as if life was in his hands to do that with. I'm not going to be focusing on that part. We can't get around the fact that God gives and takes away. He is the author of life, so he can take that, but we're talking about our infants saved. So was the baby saved? Because if it's the baby saved, then you're like, well, that God has the right to take its life away and then give it eternal life. So that lightens the load a little bit. But before we get assuming too much, where do we think that David thought he was going when he died? And why was David so afraid in the first place of judgment? What was the judgment that the Lord said, I'm not gonna use on you? You deserve what? What was the judgment that David deserved for what he did when he sent that woman's husband off to be killed so that he could have the woman? It was death. So why wouldn't David have been excited about that?

unknown 20:52

Right?

SPEAKER_04 20:53

Well, I'm just gonna be with you, Lord. Is that really where he thought he was going? Because you see a conflict there, it seems like he thought he was just gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Right?

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Right. And so David didn't really think he was going right to heaven when he died. So where did he think his son was at then? Psalm 6 4 says, Turn, O Lord, deliver my life, save me for the sake of your steadfast love, for in death there is no remembrance. In Sheol, who will give you praise? And then Psalm 115 says, The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence. But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore, praise the Lord. Then in Isaiah 38, for Sheol does not thank you, death does not praise you. Those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness. The ancient Hebrews didn't believe that they went right to heaven. It's impossible to believe that he would make that assumption of his child. See what I'm saying? So we can't really actually discern that from that passage, because the ancient Hebrews would have never thought that way. They thought they were dying and awaiting a resurrection. The hope of the resurrection was the hope of Israel. And it was the hope of Christians too in the first century. The resurrection's gonna come and he's gonna bring life to everybody. So where did David actually think he was going?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

In Psalm eighty eight we read, O Lord, God of my salvation, I cry out day and night before you. Let my prayer come before you. Incline your ear to my cry, for my soul is full of troubles, and my life draws near to Sheol. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. I am a man who has no strength, like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand. You have put me in the depths of the pit, in the regions dark and deep. Your wrath lies heavy upon me, and you overwhelm me with all your waves.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

It sounds really drab, and it's like depressing, but think about how big grace is in light of that. Just think for a minute how blessed we are to be able to be like, when I die, I'm going to be with the Lord. That's going to be one of the greatest blessings that we have is Christ. Knowing that Christ already is going to be the only way to do it.