Speaker 1 0:15

Maybe we want to talk a little bit on the early church. What was the early church like when you realize that church wasn't what it appears to be today in our congregations in these buildings? Has anybody had an experience where they just like their eyes were open to something that was really off?

Speaker 4 0:35

Over all the years that I uh was involved with Christianity, um I got saved at nine years old, so I've had a life of of theology, you know, of living at the Christian experience to some degree. There was a tension in that what I thought in my mind was Christianity was really nothing of what it was. But because of my upbringing, because of the way that I was raised in my environment, I thought it was supposed to be that way. And I finally got to a place in my life where I began to realize that that Jesus' yoke was easy and his burden was light. But if it was, why was I having such tension as a pastor, an elder, you know, just as a believer, a husband, a father? Why was there so much tension in my life trying to direct other people into this thing called Christianity? And I remember one time I I was uh uh talking with someone about the fellowship and church and all that stuff, and it it sort of blurted out the fact that I can't understand why anyone wants to bring people to Christ and then struggle with attentions that they have. It's almost like, well, I've got to suffer, so you might as well come along and suffer with me. And that's very unfortunate, but it was really a truth in my life because I had a genuine desire to experience all that God had, but I didn't realize the means that I had to actually see how easy, how simple, and how magnificent God's grace is. Amen.

Speaker 3 2:09

Wow. Yeah. Amen. What church were you uh was it like Baptist or Methodist?

Speaker 4 2:17

Well, I grew up in a Methodist church. My mother had a nervous breakdown when I was nine. So we moved to my grandparents' home in another town for the summer so she could get away from everything. As a result of that, a friend of mine invited me to vacation Bible school. That was a CMA church. So I went to this vacation Bible school with this retired missionary, and she's the one that led me to the Lord at nine years old. So the family was traditionally Methodist, so I was a Methodist. You know, I was in the MYF, I was in all those things, all the way up through choir, you know, all those things, all the way through until I went off to college. And then when I went to college, I went to a local college for a semester. Then I went to a Bible college in Vermont after that. So I studied there for a while. And that's when my life really started to change. I started to see, oh my goodness, look at all these different types of believers, all these different Christians that I just thought everybody was a Methodist, you know what I mean? Except my friend Weij, he was a Catholic, so I got a taste of Catholicism there too.

Speaker 1 3:20

Yeah, so you had that kind of initial paradigm shift, and I know I was sharing that I was brought up Catholic, and you know, with that comes a lot of confusion. They kind of speak a whole different language when it comes to Christ. So when I met Melissa, that was the first time I'd experienced actually attending a Protestant church, and it was a total shock to my system. This is unfamiliar to me. Like they I can actually understand what they're saying, and so I could understand their message better, right? Than the Catholic priests as a child. You know, I don't know if it's any different as an adult. Uh, I don't know how to interpret their lingo very well. I think that you guys could probably attest to that.

Speaker 3:58

Yeah, no, I mean I I was raised Catholic, and I mean it it's at least was a starting point. Yeah. Okay. But then you get one and once you really do, and more so when you got into it, when you really start reading the Bible, they never really follow the Bible. Yeah, they have their own little missile that's all their own little things, and it always makes you you believe, but yet you think, why am I really doing this? Why is this still so old school and not right? Yeah. Very good, yeah. Yeah, praying to Mary.

Speaker 3 4:34

Say, Anthony, help me find my keys.

Speaker 1 4:37

We never were that into that. And my dad was always modeling a belief in God and a faith in God, but we had like general faith because we weren't really learning from the real word of God, the His written word, you know. The living word was kind of where was he in all this? And then I go to the Protestant church, and then I'm exposed to the reality of sin. Because they were really good at teaching sin in these places, absolutely. And I'm and I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 4 5:03

We're professional sinners.

Speaker 1 5:05

Yeah. Yeah, so I was exposed to that, and I realized, okay, now I right away understood sin by attending the church, but the gospel wasn't really there as we were attending. I wasn't really getting exposed to Jesus. And uh it wasn't until Melissa and I met with this one of their guidance counselors, the guy does the cross diagram for me. They had been preaching sin really well, so I had the guilt, but I didn't have Christ. You know, because they they just failed to do that on a regular basis, is what I found. But this guidance counselor showed me why I needed Jesus, because I had no clue before that. If you would have asked me why I believed in Jesus, I would have told you he died for my sins, but I didn't understand it. All I could do is profess it, because as a Catholic, that's all we were trained to say, but it never made any sense to me because we were trained to ask for forgiveness, and then you even had to go through the priest, right? And so this is what I'm being trained to ultimately go to some guy and confess my sin. And I could never make the connection, but with that cross diagram made the connection for me, and I was saved that day. That's when I was born again and all made sense. It just went on to a fuller understanding and a realization that that was that reality was not actually being built on any longer as I attended. There it was actually being built on with straw, as Paul would say it, things that could burn. I was being taught to live by my self-effort instead of by Christ. That's a deep conversation to explain all that, but that's what I learned later when Lee came to our study group. And long story short, he was invited by a friend, and we're talking about how we need to confess, you know, and self-cleanse our sin. And he brought this idea to the table that you don't have to do that. And the room exploded. People were upset. The one guy said, Don't make me bring out my seminary education. It was getting crazy. After the study, I was like, Lee, you said something that really like resonated with me. I want to talk more, and so we continued to talk. That led to a really long journey of starting to understand grace. It really took some time to learn what to do with that information, though. Lee like know how to apply that. I'm forgiven now, so now what?

Speaker 7:26

Right? Exactly. Well, I mean, like in the Catholic Church, okay, you got all your different sacraments. And even as a kid, you sit there and wonder, okay, how can I be a bad person, kill people, steal whatever? But if I receive extra munch and when I die, I'm saved. How can just one meeting solve your whole life?

Speaker 1 7:49

Yeah, and a lot of times it's like money or indulgences. There was money involved with that getting forgiveness in the Catholic Church. Even in your guys' age, it was going on, and you know, you don't need to get into the details of that, but we know what was going on.

Speaker 2 8:01

And well, you know what? Unfortunately, I think the the problem of we're talking about the Catholic indulgences, but I I think that the corporate church has a problem with money. It's not just Catholic. And a girl, you know, a hundred percent. I mean, it's a multi-dill industry that is created and expanded, I could be like quality, quality, I could overcreat it. We see that. We knew that we can stay there. And it didn't even feel right to like volunteer to help in those. It was just totally against what you know Christ did. And he went in there and overturned all those tables and this is my father's house.

Speaker 3 9:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:26

What are you doing?

Speaker 1 9:28

Yeah.

Speaker 4 9:29

I don't think there's I don't think it's a coincidence of the two topics that you're talking about. I actually just doing a a series on this. It's pretty interesting how the case of circular repentance, you know, there's a a process that we all go through as we grow in Christ, and the church presents it, you know, we sin, we repent, we're forgiven. We sin, we repent, we're forgiven. Yeah, I I could go on, but we don't have time. But anyway, we sin, we repent, and we're forgiven. That mentality keeps us subjective to our leadership. And as a result, as we're under that leadership, it's easier for us to do things to appease our frailty. So without grace, without Christ involved in it, we have a tendency to do things. That's why I did it for years. Be involved, very involved in the church, you know, show up when the doors are open, give your 10% or whatever you give, honor the pastor like he's a demigod. All those things, I did them because I thought it was part of everything, because I knew pretty soon I was gonna fail, and then I was gonna have to ask for big isn't again, and then I was gonna accept by faith the fact that I was forgiven. But then was I really forgiven, and how to what degree was I forgiven, and what did I need to do to accommodate that in my life?

Speaker 1 10:55

And that was served, that was service. In my own thinking, that's how I became receptive to the gospel that Lee had preached to that group, because I wanted that kind of forgiveness and I couldn't find it. I could never trust that I was forgiven based on the doctrine they presented me. I could never trust it. You know, am I really forgiven from the past and am I really forgiven as I walk and I'm not perfect? Because if I'm judging sin the way God judges it, you know, I'm not as good as I think I am. It's impossible when we really study sin according to the way Jesus saw it. You're not living the Christian life if you go by the Sermon on the Mount. You're not living it. You're failing. You're ever failing. But the apostles did not teach an ever-failing faith. They taught an ever-successful faith. Peter said, put away sin. He didn't say meditate on it. He said, put away sin and meditate on good things in Christ. Meditate on Christ. The dependency on Christ. You're adding to that faith and to that dependency knowledge. You build on your knowledge. And then grace and peace are multiplied in your life. It's not through repentance and asking for forgiveness. That's not what Peter taught. Grace and peace are not multiplied through that formula that you're being told is going to multiply grace and peace in your life. And the tithe isn't going to help with that either, because that's an Old Testament law. Give me a break.

Speaker 4 12:17

That's so true. And it all those things were taught from such a young age that it is ingrained, whether we're a Methodist or Baptist or a Catholic or whatever it is, it's ingrained in us that that's the cycle of life that we live in. And as a result of that, it leads to burnout, frustration, you know, people walking away, not realizing that you can't, but walking away from Christ. At some point in time, there's something that we're confronted with that helps us see clearly the simplicity of the gospel.

Speaker 1 12:52

Yes.

Speaker 4 12:52

And yeah, that something happens. It happened in my life, I'm sure, in all of yours as well. Something occurred that stripped away all of the dominoes that were surrounding us and the smoke that was in our way. And we realized all of a sudden there's just a simple thing. I mean, I don't have anything, there's nothing left. What do I do now? And that's when being takes over instead of trying to attain or do. All of a sudden we realize we have nothing and we're still his. That's grace.

Speaker 1 13:26

Yep. Amen. Good description. I really love how Peter thought that. He teaches the vine and branches analogy. He gives us the template for that. He does. And it's all built on God's love. It starts with God's love for us. It flows through the growing of knowledge and all these things, and then it's multiplied. Grace and peace is multiplied as it comes out as love. So his love is flowing in and through us. And I believe that's the formula for everything we need in life. As Peter said it. Everything we need for life and godliness. That includes every aspect of our life is the flow of love, of God's love flowing through us that heals us from whatever we need.

Speaker 4 14:11

I like the first chapter of Peter because I think he's really wound up about things. When he says, you know, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, by his great mercy we've been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. I mean, really, that if that doesn't wire your battery up, get you going, that's uh that's just where he started. And then in Second Peter, of course, he he enriches that with the realities of Christian living. And we have this inheritance which is undefiled, unfading. It can't be taken away from us. It's guarded by faith in heaven, kept in heaven for you. So I mean, he just the beginning of that, 1 Peter gives us such a picture of the absoluteness of God, of his grace. We knew Peter touched and held and communicated with Jesus. People can say what they may. He probably was a type A, don't you think? Maybe a type A personality. Oh, I won't be able to do that. That's right. Oh, yeah? Yeah, sometimes I think that's a little bit of John, because I think John was a little bit passive aggressive in that Peter was always out front, so John said, I gotta write that down.

Speaker 1 15:28

That's funny. Yeah, that's kind of dynamic going on there because they all had their own personality.

Speaker 4 15:33

It's magnified and amplified very well through the writers. Luke did a good job of it, you know, uh John himself and all those. So it's pretty amazing how scripture can do that.

Speaker 1 15:44

Yeah, you definitely see the expressions of Christ differently in each of the writers. .