announcement: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace podcast, where we celebrate and explore the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Tune in to the Waking Up to Grace podcast on every major platform. You can also listen to our episodes and read our full transcripts at wakinguptogracecom. And now here's Lenny.

Lenny: 0:22

Welcome back to the podcast everyone. Today we'll be looking at God's judgment and Paul's rhetoric. As we go into chapter 2 of Romans, we read Therefore you have no excuse, o man, every one of you who judges, for in passing judgment on another, you condemn yourself because you, the judge, practice the very same things. That's Romans 2, verse 1. The question we want to ask here would be is Paul speaking to the same group of people that we determined to be mankind in general so far? Let's look back at what we read earlier to keep things fresh. Romans 1.21 says For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to God, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened. Do we have any reason to believe anything changed in the context of this targeted group of people so far? I would say no. It looks like we're looking at the same group of people. He's just talking about mankind in general from the beginning of time. Do we see the secular or non-believing world judging each other in this passage? I would say so. In Romans 2.1 that we were reading, he's saying you have no excuse, o man, every one of you who judges, talking about mankind in general, isn't he? And the next question would be Do we see a lot of hypocrisy in Scripture coming from the world apart from national Israel? And yeah, we do. That's what Paul's been talking about this whole time, isn't it?

Lenny: 1:53

So it seems that Paul continues to describe a mankind that rejects Yahweh, and he continues in verses 2 through 4, saying we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. Do you suppose, o man, you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? I wanted to point out here, as we read the next several verses, that O man is written with exclamation. There should probably be an exclamation point at the end, based on the original language. According to Strong's, it's a primary interjection, a sign of the vocative case as a note of exclamation. So Paul is expressing severity here as he describes God's judgment. He's exclaiming it. But is it just me, or does Paul seem to have a way of communicating that we just don't use today? Do you hear people communicating like this in your church? Probably not other than when quoting scripture. Maybe the writings of our apostles are ancient writings. They didn't at all communicate in words the way we do today.

Lenny: 3:09

In our intro to Romans and Paul's writings we discussed rhetoric. There's dispute over whether or not Paul spoke rhetorically in his writings. There are several points made that say that he does not use rhetoric to communicate. Some of these points are rhetoric was not part of the genre of letter writing. In other words, they didn't use it in letters.

Lenny: 3:33

Commonly, paul's writings do not conform perfectly to the structure of speeches dictated in rhetorical handbooks. Rhetoric most often took place in certain settings courtrooms, assemblies, festivals and celebrations, and these settings are lacking in Paul's letters. And then the early church fathers, in air quotes, did not identify in Paul a rhetorical communicator. They didn't see rhetoric. And a lot of people go by the early church fathers. And then we have Paul rejected the use of rhetoric in 1 Corinthians 1-3 as diluting the power of the gospel. And if you go back in 1 Corinthians 1-3 and read that, it's a pretty good point they make. And then rhetoric was used for speeches and not writing. That would be the final point. So there's some pretty good points made that would say that Paul did not use rhetoric.

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But then there's several really good points that support Paul's use of rhetoric in his writings. Starting with, paul's letters were meant to persuade. Therefore, it's possible to examine Paul's letters with reference to rhetorical motives. We talked about that in our intro. And then the rhetorical genre was flexible and Paul could change and shape the pattern of his speech for each situation. There were also different types of rhetoric and different styles in various regions, so they weren't all exactly the same. And then settings such as trials before Roman governors and debates within the church would have called for expertise in rhetoric.

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Another point is Paul refused to attribute the power of his gospel to rhetoric, but his letters were still considered weighty and strong in 2 Corinthians 10.10. Even Peter calls them hard to understand in 2 Peter 3.16. This may display that Paul didn't use rhetoric in the gospel proclamation, but he probably did use rhetorical devices in writing letters to his churches. This would also explain why in our 2 Corinthians 10.10 passage, where it's said that his letters are weighty and strong, they also say his bodily presence is weak and his speech of no account. And then another point is that while it is true that rhetoric is meant primarily for speaking. We should recognize a couple of things. The only knowledge we have of rhetoric is from written sources, such as handbooks on rhetoric. We have no recordings. All the speeches known of come from written sources. Many of Paul's letters were likely dictated from oral speech, like Tertius and Romans, and were meant to be read aloud to the churches.

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Another point yet Paul was born and raised in Tarsus of Cilicia, a Greek-speaking city. His first language was Greek. Cilicia, a Greek-speaking city. His first language was Greek. Paul probably received a Greek education, including Greek philosophy, literature and rhetoric. Paul's use of phrases such as what then? What then, shall we say? Certainly not.

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And oh man, all have striking parallels with Epictetus' discourses, and I reference all those passages in the notes that you'll find at wakinguptogracecom on this episode's page, and I'm even linking to these Epictetus' discourses because it's quite fascinating to look at. Another point is that Romans invokes a number of rhetorical devices known to Greco-Roman authors, including rhetorical questions, and I cite a bunch of rhetorical devices known to Greco-Roman authors, including rhetorical questions, and I cite a bunch of verses in the notes apostrophes. Apostrophes meaning questions for an imaginary opponent, with several verses in the notes. And then we have dialogues and all these Roman verses that I reference in the study notes. Again refutations of objections, several Romans passages, speeches in character, Romans 7, romans 10, comparisons all over Romans and then example stories all over Romans. Some passages in Romans sound theological. Other passages are fashioned in a rhetorical sense.

Lenny: 7:51

I've come to see Paul's letter to the Romans as both theology and rhetoric. I've also come to believe that we can gain a much deeper understanding of Paul's writings when we understand his ways of communicating. It helps us with context. It helps us to understand the intended meaning of Paul's words, especially in difficult passages as we go through our Roman study. I believe that many of you will see what I mean In the passage we're studying now and others that we'll encounter throughout our study.

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You'll find much similarity in the writings of Epictetus. Epictetus was a Greek Stoic philosopher and again I have a link to his writings for your review in this study guide. It's really interesting to look at. You see so much of the same verbiage. When you compare and contrast Paul with this Greek philosopher and the way that he spoke, it's not surprising to me that Paul used rhetorical speaking. Going back to episodes 33 and 34, we learn that the Jews in Rome spoke Greek, so the Jews and Gentiles both would have been familiar with rhetoric. Paul was merely communicating in a way that they could relate with. This would also explain why his writings are so hard for us to relate with today. We naturally try and put Paul inside of the box of our communication methods and he just doesn't fit into that box.

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But getting back to our passage, paul wrote we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. Do you suppose, o man, you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? And that's Romans 2, 2 through 4. Did Paul see the Lord's judgment as righteous and true? Yes, he most definitely did. Based on this passage, didn't he? Now does Paul call out the self-righteous here, to be sure they realize that Yahweh is not going to be fooled by their behavior? He most certainly does. He's calling out the self-righteous, the people that are judging others, and saying hey, you're not going to escape the judgment of God either just because you judge so well yourself.

Lenny: 10:00

Back in Romans 1.18, we read for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth. Looking back on this passage, does Paul teach that self-righteousness, or pointing the finger at the behavior of others, is godly or righteous in any way? No, he definitely doesn't, does he? So would self-righteousness then also suppress the truth? Yeah, it would suppress the truth, wouldn't it?

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In chapter 2, verse 4, we read or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? And so I ask could the blessing of enjoying life on earth be considered the riches of his kindness and patience? To those that are rejecting him yeah, letting him live, that's pretty generous I would say he didn't owe anybody that. Does he owe anybody an opportunity to live on earth? No, he really doesn't. He created life Based on the true definition of repentance, which is a change of mind.

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What is Yahweh looking for in these godless people? He's looking for them to repent, isn't it? That's why you always hear repent, repent, change your mind, turn to God. And then Romans 2, 5 through 8, we read because of your heart and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself. On the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed, he will render to each one according to his works. To those who, by patience and well-doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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Now, if this passage were taken out of context, could it sound like a works-based salvation? It certainly would, wouldn't it? Now, if a church were to put this up on a screen and do a study on it, could we mislead a whole lot of people that way? Yeah, you really. Could you look at this passage? You could really mislead some people if you're not looking at context, opening up your Bible and just saying this is God's word, this is what he's telling you today. Can you see why we go, verse by verse, to be sure that what we see is in the correct context? I can't stress it enough. It's just so important.

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When Paul says but because of your heart and impenitent heart, doesn't that mean he's talking to you? Trick question it doesn't mean he's talking to you at all. We said he's using rhetoric. Oftentimes there's an imaginary opponent. So if he's talking to an imaginary opponent, he's putting some imaginary person in the mix of his conversation and you put yourself in that position as his imaginary opponent. When he's using this rhetoric and this rhetorical speaking, where do you put yourself? You put yourself in with the godless people. You don't want to do that.

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In romans 121, we read for although they knew god, they did not honor him as god or give thanks to him. But they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened, and therefore god gave them up in the lusts of their hearts, to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among. So is Paul still talking about a mankind who rejects God? Here, yes, paul is speaking in an apostolic judgment against those who reject the truth. This may seem obvious when we study it, but these simple principles are thrown out the window daily in church institutions in order to prove whatever point they want to make to you. Always pay attention to context. Don't let sloppy hermeneutics lead you into bondage and error.

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Let's look at our passage again, realizing that he's not telling us that our heart, impenitent heart, is storing up wrath for ourselves. So he writes but because of our heart, impenitent heart is storing up wrath for ourselves. So he writes. So is there a place here for those who are trying to please God but fail to meet his requirements? Maybe they weren't good enough? Is that what he's talking about?

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If we are to get what we deserve for our works, how can we be saved from God's wrath and fury? Do you have any sin in your life that deserves wrath? All of it does, doesn't it? If we look at this passage as relating directly to the works we produce, we fall into fear. We cannot stand firm in our behavior, can we? If we do, that's just the self-righteousness that we read about earlier. We're going to judge other people based on our standard. He already told us we're not going to escape judgment if we do that. Our works will never allow us to stand before a Lord who is as holy and righteous as Yahweh. But what if the passage is actually about the root of the problem? What if it refers to that which produces bad or good works in our life?

Lenny: 15:09

In verse 7 we read Would you say that Paul describes someone seeking glory and honor for themselves? If not, how might we find or obtain this glory and honor, knowing that Paul taught from the same Old Testament scriptures, the Tanakh that we have today. Let's see if we can find a connection with what he's talking about here. That might help. In Psalm 8.5, we read Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. So who's being described by David in this psalm? It's Christ, isn't it? It's the Lord who crowned him. Yahweh did, didn't he? And then in 1 Chronicles 29.11, we read Yours is the kingdom, o Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. So who is the power and glory in this passage? It's Yahweh. Do you think our behavior can get us in on this?

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In 1 Timothy 1.17 we read Does Paul include any people in this statement? In his writing to Timothy, does he say to the king of ages and Lenny and Melissa, immortal, invisible? No, he doesn't. Does? He Doesn't say any of that. He doesn't include people here. So who is glory and honor to be given to forever? Yahweh and, of course, yeshua. They're both Lord.

Lenny: 16:53

And then in Revelation we read Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things and by your will they existed and were created. And that's in the Revelation of John 4, verse 11. Are you getting the point here? Can you see where I'm going with this? Let's look at what Paul said again in our Romans letter. But because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself. On the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed, he will render to each one according to his works. To those who, by patience and well-doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. So what are those who, by patience and well-doing, seeking? What are they seeking? They seek the Lord, don't they? They're seeking the Lord Is seeking merely looking for him in this context, or is it seeking after his guidance or being directed by the Lord? I think it's both.

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So whose works are really necessary then, for salvation? Whose works are being judged If we look at it this way, the way the passage is telling us, it's the Lord, his work, he's the glory, he's the honor. To him alone. Glory and honor, immortality. We have none of those things. We need him, don't we? And then will God give his glory and honor to those who seek him?

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Let's see what Paul says about that to the Christians in Thessalonica 2 Thessalonians 1.12 says so we seek him, don't we? Yeah, we seek him. Whose works do we want to be found in us on the day of judgment? We want to see Yeshua's works found in us, don't we? So? Is God actually looking for his glory in us, then? Yeah, he's looking for the glory of Christ. Yeshua, his work Before the cross, before the finished work of Christ. They were looking forward to these things. Now we have them. Do you think that when Yahweh finds that we are glorified in Christ, that we'll pass His judgment and receive the promised eternal life? Yeah, we absolutely are going to pass right through judgment with flying colors. We're not going to have to sit there and go to that imaginary drive-in theater and look at our lives and be judged for all the things that we've done, good or bad. We're clothed with christ.

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But then, after that, in verse 8, paul writes but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. Does paul describe believers who act selfishly and fall into lies? No, no, he's not talking about believers at all. He's talking about a godless mankind, a mankind who rejects Yahweh and his truth. They reject the gospel. They seek righteousness apart from him. They seek a righteousness that comes from themselves, they deceive themselves by making up their own rules and even judging others based on those made-up rules. And as we already studied, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth. That's 1.18. Then Romans, 1.21 says For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their and again.

Lenny: 20:22

Is obeying unrighteousness the same as rejecting Yahweh? Yes, it is. It's not your behavior. It's rejecting Yahweh Is not honoring or giving thanks to Yahweh, the opposite of giving all honor and glory to Him. Yeah, that's opposition. Not honoring or giving thanks to Yahweh is what the godless people were doing.

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So do these passages describe anything about actual behavior at all? No, they actually don't. They're not talking about behavior. They're talking about belief and unbelief. They're talking about the faithful and the faithless, the God-honoring and the godless. So why do those who reject Yahweh get all the bad labels? It's because they're producing all that stuff. Sin is produced in unbelief. Sin is produced when we reject Yahweh. Sin is produced in the godless. It's not until we turn to Yahweh that we can even understand righteousness From God's view, true righteousness that comes from the heart. We don't even know it until God shows it to us, until he reveals it to us, until he opens our eyes. We are simply self-seeking before that.

Lenny: 21:33

We read earlier about those who reject Yahweh. Paul wrote we know that the judgment of God rightly falls about those who reject Yahweh. Paul wrote we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. Do you suppose, o man, you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? So is it crystal clear what the Lord is looking for in his judgment? He's looking for belief, he's looking for honor, he's looking for thanks. Instead, mankind, for the most part, rejects right. So we see a clear context of belief and unbelief as we go through these passages in Romans.

Lenny: 22:16

But let's see what Paul says next. In Romans 2, 9-11, we read there will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first, and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality. Now I'm going to ask are we seeing a shift of focus in Paul's writing here? I see a shift of focus. I see him now bringing them into their situation and their time period the Jews and the Gentiles, the people who he's writing to. So we're going to start seeing him focus on Jew and Gentile now. He starts at the beginning and now he's working his way up to where they're at now, and he does that throughout Romans. We're going to see that.

Lenny: 23:06

So what did we learn earlier about glory and honor? They come from the Lord, right. Glory and honor are for the Lord alone, right. So, based on that, why were the Jews the first to receive? Glory and honor are for the Lord alone, right. So, based on that, why were the Jews the first to receive glory and honor and peace? They were the first to receive Messiah, weren't they? Christ came to Israel. He came to his people. He came to save the lost sheep of Israel. That was his ministry. And was this based on works or faith? It was based on faith. And was this based on works or faith? It was based on faith. We see that clearly in the scripture. I know there's arguments on that, but it's very clear in scripture when we study it Later in Romans, paul makes this abundantly clear.

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In Romans 9, 31 through 32, we read but that Israel, who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness, did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone. Paul says they didn't pursue it by faith. They were obedient to the law, thinking that the works of the law were making them righteous, and not faith. They were godless, they were hypocrites, they were heartless according to Yeshua.

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But getting back to our passage, let's read that again Romans 2, 9-11. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality. The big question that we need to ask ourselves here is, with all of mankind rejecting Yahweh all through the ages, why is tribulation and distress coming first to the Jews, if tribulation and distress is just simple hard times that we experience when we don't have Yahweh on our side, if it's just simple distress and tribulation in a way that affects our worldly being on a daily basis for sin being disobedient to God.

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If it's just as simple as that, why burst to the Jews?

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And this question is one we'll be investigating in our next episode. So stay tuned to the Waking Up to Grace podcast. I hope you guys have a great day out there and I'll talk to you next week.