Waking Up to Grace
Waking Up to Grace is a Bible-centered podcast for anyone who is weary of religious performance and ready to rest confidently in Christ.
Hosted by Lenny, each episode brings honest conversations and a fresh look at Scripture to questions about grace, faith, the New Covenant, identity in Christ, forgiveness, assurance, the church, and eternal life. The goal is not to give you another religious checklist, but to help you see the finished work of Jesus more clearly and reconsider long-held traditions in the light of Scripture.
Whether you are questioning what you have been taught, recovering from legalism, or simply longing to know Christ more deeply, join us as we wake up to grace—one conversation at a time.
Find companion Bible studies and more at WakingUpToGrace.com
Waking Up to Grace
What Is Biblical Fellowship? | Episode 38
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What is biblical fellowship, and can a Christian fall out of fellowship with God because of sin, failure, or poor discipleship?
In this episode, we look at how discipleship can become another system of rules when it is tied to maintaining fellowship with God. We consider what Jesus meant by taking up our cross, Paul’s picture of unity in the body of Christ in Ephesians 4, and the fellowship language of 1 John.
Biblical fellowship is more than gathering in the same building or following the same religious practices. Fellowship among believers grows from shared truth, love, and life in Christ. And for those who belong to Christ, fellowship with the Father is not a fragile relationship that must be repeatedly restored through religious performance.
Read the companion study and join the conversation:
https://wakinguptograce.com/038-the-discipleship-fellowship-debacle/
The Truth About Discipleship Doctrine
AnnouncementHello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace podcast , where we celebrate and explore the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ . Tune in to the Waking Up to Grace podcast on every major platform . You can also listen to our episodes and read our full transcripts at wakinguptogracecom . And now here's Lenny .
LennyWelcome back to the podcast , everyone .
MelissaWelcome back to the podcast . Everyone , Welcome back .
LennySo last week we left off talking about discipleship doctrine and I don't think we really came to a full conclusion as far as our opinion on whether we can be or can't be disciples . Did we , melissa ? We did not . From my vantage point , I'm not sure how much it really matters what we call ourselves as far as are we disciples or are we not disciples ? I think , as long as we're looking at it in a spiritual way , that discipleship is a spiritual thing . It's not a physical work that we do .
MelissaSo not looking at it legalistically and putting ourselves in some sort of bondage over it , right ?
LennySo we did come to the conclusion that it's not something we can earn , it's not possible to work for , it's not something that we can really achieve by effort . And if that's the case , what doctrine are you going to build on it , other than believe ?
MelissaWell said .
LennyI wanted to put the last proverbial nail in the coffin , but I'm going to say the last nail in the cross here , to just prove that this whole discipleship doctrine thing is just kind of silly when we really analyze it . The verses we were going through last week , some of them Luke 14 , 27 , came to my mind , and that was a part of the passage that I didn't really talk about . So the passage reads whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple . So we did talk about it and I said well , who's going to bear their cross ? Who's out there bearing their cross ? Christ is saying you have to bear your cross and follow me . What does he mean by that ? What do you think he means by that when he says that ?
MelissaI believe a lot of people think that means they have to walk as Jesus walked in the Gospels . Walk according to the law .
LennyAnd scripture does tell us that we ought to walk how Christ walked . It does , and we've said this before and I'll say it again how is that ? That would be by faith .
MelissaDependency on the Father .
LennyChrist wasn't teaching us to live by self-effort .
MelissaBut when I'm saying the way people are looking at this , I think they're looking at it as self-effort . But when I'm saying the way people are looking at this , I think they're looking at it as self-effort . They need to follow the Ten Commandments .
LennyYes , and you could even say oh . Bearing my cross is suffering through the consequences of my sin .
LennyYou could say it's suffering through the consequences of living in this world , maybe , maybe a health problem . That's your cross to bear . Yes , you could be somebody else's cross to bear under today's analogies if you look at it that way . But what was really meant by that passage ? And I can tell you what . I think that passage is very clear on what it means , based on what we learned last week , based on the fact that we learned from these passages that there's no possible way you're going to earn discipleship by self-effort .
MelissaRight , that was what we learned if you could , then why do you need jesus ?
Lennyyeah . So if we take that simple principle , which is pretty much the extent of the gospel , you need christ , you need god to open your eyes , you need to believe in order to be saved . But I would argue that it's the same thing as being a disciple . Salvation is the same and you have people constantly saying , under this discipleship doctrine , trying to pull these things apart , pull this one truth apart and make it into two . Make it into two . Yeah , if you look at the meaning of this passage and in the context of the rest of that passage that we went through last week , we're going to see that bearing your own cross would be that's death . Over the week we were having a discussion listen , you were listening to a podcast and you were saying I was listening to these guys talking about how the word cross , or even the symbol of a cross , was nothing that they took lightly back in the day .
MelissaRight . They wouldn't even speak the words , oftentimes because it was superstitious , it was so awful , they didn't even want to say the word .
LennyIt was tragic , it was scary , it was terrifying . It was death punishing suffering . It was horrible .
MelissaNightmares for the rest of your life if you ever witnessed a crucifixion and if you were experiencing it .
LennyYour body is killing itself slowly as a public spectacle . As these things are taking place , your body is basically strangling itself , to say it lightly the worst possible form of torture , it's .
LennyWhy , would Christ say , you have to bury your own cross ? Well , I think it's the same reason that Paul said in Galatians 2.20 , I've been crucified with Christ . It is no longer I who live , but Christ who lives in me . And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God , who loved me and gave himself for me .
LennyThat's what it means to be crucified with Christ . That's what it means to bear your own cross . You died and you had to die in order to receive the benefits of the life of Christ . Your old self , when you came to belief whether you believe it was on your own accord or you believe God called you to believe when you came to belief , your old self was crucified with Christ and you were given new life because of his resurrected life that he gave you after he rose from the dead .
MelissaInconceivable .
LennyAbsolutely Positively and in all ways inconceivable .
MelissaTruly Think about that , the way that he suffered , so that we wouldn't have to .
LennyAll the sin that we have in our lives from start to finish . We deserved to be up there , suffering painstakingly and then just have the life taken from us , but instead he takes it and gives us life eternally . We always hear people wanting to . In a sense , I hear people say that word superimpose . You can't get it out of your head because it sounds funny and yet it's meaningful . People are superimposing this discipleship doctrine on people and it's like turning grace into law , because they're giving you the rules to live by faith .
MelissaIt reminds me of what Martin Luther said about dressed in evening clothes . What is that quote ?
LennyHe was talking about free will doctrine and he said , the free will doctrine is a works-based doctrine in evening clothes . In other words , it's dressed up in lingerie , it looks very enticing .
MelissaYes , that's how I see discipleship doctrine . It looks enticing oh , this is what you need to be , have fellowship and be friends with the Lord but all it is is law and bondage .
LennyYes , and when you speak out against it , you make yourself look like one who's speaking out against good things , and that's where it becomes complicated .
MelissaRight .
LennyBecause a lot of these guys teaching this stuff they mean well . I don't think all of them do , but I do sense and can see genuineness in many of them . They truly mean well , but they're in bondage so they can't really help people be free when they're still in a bondage themselves .
MelissaRight .
LennySo there's certain areas that they just can't help us , but then I can still learn from them in other areas . When you start making rules and superimposing , if you will , rules onto the Christian , it just turns into a law all its own . In Galatians 3.20 , paul said the law is not of faith , and to me that's the same thing as saying self-effort is not of faith . The one who does these things shall live by them . So , in other words , what Paul's telling us is that these rules that govern our behavior . If we're going to make rules to govern grace , we're going to live by rules , but if we're going to live by grace freely , then we're going to live freely by grace . So which way are you going to live your life ? I think the end result of anybody that's passionate spiritually is that I don't really want to sin . I want to try to provoke others to live a more fruitful life , a more loving life with the fruits of the Spirit .
MelissaI think that's something that tends to happen . When you're born again . You're convicted .
LennyWe have these desires , but then there's this vicious fight as to how we get there . The people at the rules are adamant about the rules and they hate freedom . And then the people under freedom really despise rules because they know what it does , but either way it turns people against each other . You have people saying no , we need rules , and other people saying no , it has to be freedom . Well , which one is it ?
MelissaOne thing that comes to my mind is something that you said to me not long ago . We were talking about to adhere . Disciples adhere to a teaching . One way to describe a disciple is a convinced adherent . So I was looking up adhere and it's to cling . I love to remember that Paul urges us to cling to Christ . He's always urging the church to cling , and I was talking to you about clinging and you said you believed that's what Paul meant when he encourages us to make every effort to do things in scripture . You said that's how we do this . We cling to Christ . That's how we make every effort .
LennyYeah .
MelissaThat's our work .
LennySo what's the Christian life ? It's making every effort to wake up in the morning clinging to the love of Christ and go to bed every night clinging to the love of Christ , and all points in between . Realizing the love of Christ is upon you , you're living in it . It realizing the love of Christ is upon you , you're living in it , it's living through you and it's all around you . And the more we realize that , the more we're taken by his love and the less fun sin becomes . It's as simple as that .
MelissaYes .
LennyIt's not about reading your Bible more . It's not about more quiet time . It's not about more study time . It's truly about love , because that's what's going to drive you to all the things that are good for you . Studying is good , reading the scripture is good . We don't just automatically do those things , though . We have to have the love to do those things . We have to have the love to even share Christ with somebody .
MelissaSo the more we focus on the love of Christ , the more we want to learn about him . This Lord that loves us so much that he went to the cross for us , rose again for us . The more we learn about his love , the more we want to learn about who he is and the more we want to do the things that he says are good for us to do to help ourselves and to help others .
LennyIn the letter of Romans , Paul reminds Jewish Romans hey guys , love is the fulfillment of the law . Do you remember ? Why is he reminding them of that ? Because that's the best thing you could remind somebody of . Hey guys , remember , this isn't about works and self-effort . Love fulfilled the law . Christ fulfilled the law through love . Therefore , love is the fulfillment of the law . Therefore , stop thinking about these things and start just living by love . He wasn't saying live by the law of love and love exactly how Christ did , or you're going to be out of fellowship . No , he was just teaching them Stop thinking that way . Start thinking love .
MelissaThat's right .
LennyIt's kind of funny . I was thinking about it throughout the week and it dawned on me . I just thought to myself we talk about there's no prophets today . We talk about how all prophecy is fulfilled . If there were to be a prophet , if we were to be looking for a prophet today , what do you think today's standards would be looking for ? Would it be five years of seminary , ten years of seminary ? Would it be a doctorate in linguistics to be a prophet ? What would it take to be a prophet ? And you guys out there who are listening , I mean , really think about this . Challenge yourself to think . If I was to look for a prophet , or look for somebody who has the truth , what's the qualifications ? Do they have to be on live network television ? Do they have to have a hundred thousand television ? Do they have to have 100,000 followers ? How big does their audience have to be ? How many people have to like them on Facebook ?
MelissaEverything that you mentioned is something that we've been trained as a society to look
Freedom, Love, and Truth
Melissafor . That's not what scripture tells us to look for . It tells us to look for the truth coming out of their mouth .
LennyExactly . It doesn't matter what color , what gender , it doesn't matter how small your church is . Oh , we're a small , bible-based church . We're an intimate , small , bible-based church . It doesn't matter .
MelissaYou'll know them by their fruit . You'll know them by the fruit of truth coming out of them . Exactly , fruit is truth , of truth coming out of them .
LennyExactly , fruit is truth . Fruit is truth . Error does not produce fruit . Amen . Christ produces the fruit . Christ is truth . Therefore , if you were going to produce fruit , it has to be based on truth .
MelissaAmen .
LennyYeshua taught that love was the fulfillment of the law . Christ set us free from sin through love , so love is freedom . Paul says use your freedom for good . Why ? Because sin is bondage . Christ taught that truth sets us free , so error is bondage . If we let sin or legalism permeate or saturate our hearts , we become willing slaves . Love has removed our shackles , and yet we put ourselves back into a prison cell . When we use our freedom for love , we live out our freedom . We put ourselves back into a prison cell . When we use our freedom for love , we live out our freedom . When we use our freedom for sin , we find ourselves building our own prison , and then , when we put ourselves under a yoke of legalism , we do the same thing . It's a prison being built around us by ourself and our own thinking . Rules and regulations do not produce love .
MelissaNo , they don't , and I think that's why Christians get labeled as some of the angriest , meanest people you can come across , because I think the ones that are strangling themselves with law are that way . There's no love there .
LennyPeople understand how just our Lord is . He's a God of justice , he has a high standard , and then they put that on themselves .
MelissaThey can't breathe , just our Lord is he's a God of justice .
LennyHe has a high standard , and then they put that on themselves . They can't breathe , but they put it on themselves , either for salvation or fellowship . That's what you see in Christianity , and sometimes a blend between the two , because when fellowship is seemingly lost , you start to have an obscure view of salvation .
MelissaYes .
LennyWhen you start imposing these doctrines onto fellowship , you start risking these doctrines onto fellowship . You start risking assurance of salvation and it could be , from something that happened 20 years ago , that you just can't believe that God can really be in fellowship with you because of I just think the more you try to build a doctrine on discipleship , the crazier it gets .
LennyIt just becomes worldly . If you look at discipleship spiritually , okay , but if you start looking at it worldly as , it just becomes worldly . If you look at discipleship spiritually , okay , but if you start looking at it worldly as behavior , it becomes worldly .
MelissaRight . I've heard it said by teachers of discipleship that you're making your connection with Christ fuzzy , You're kind of hindering the connection , and then the next time I hear it talked about by the same teacher , it's you're not a friend to Christ . Well , if he's disowned you as a friend , you're really starting to dip your toes in the water of . Does he love me ? Does he care about me ?
LennyYeah , and then you think you're making discipleship a worldly effort . Okay , well , let's look at a worldly example of discipleship . Let's look at the disciples . When was it ever said that disciples were unfriended by Jesus ? All I see is at the end of the road , when he knew that where he was heading , it is written that he loved them till the end . That's what's written about the disciples . And what did they do to earn that , other than have , as Christ in his own words said , you have little faith in doubt . Questioning , arguing . They followed him , yes , but what display of great works kept them in his love all that time ? Only belief , which he gave them , which he gave them In his own words that's unconditional love .
LennyThat's words . That's unconditional love . That's right , that's unconditional love . There's no conditions there and you can't put a condition on fellowship . Agreed , that was his fellowship with his disciples , perfect fellowship from him . Lacking fellowship from them as far as how they were giving back . What were they giving back in return ?
MelissaOh man yeah .
LennyOh , they followed him . We read why . Why are you still here ? Because I chose you . That's right . We've been talking a lot about church and I don't want to make this whole thing about church , but these church institutions just remind me of false governing systems . They're false governing systems . They're false governing systems .
MelissaAnd maybe a lot of that is because so many of them are connected to the government , which is insane when you think about it .
LennyYeah , they're corporations , and so they become , by nature , governing systems .
MelissaAnd even if they're not connected with the government , they're set up like a business , so the motives get fuzzy .
LennyYeah , sadly , it's just kind of by design
Unity in Christian Doctrine and Fellowship
Lenny. I was thinking about it and you have these institutions bringing people together in one mind . Right In Acts you read they were of one mind and spirit , right .
MelissaYes .
LennySo this was amazing One heart and spirit and they were thinking the same , all these things . So these churches could easily say well , this is what we're producing . We're creating one-minded thinking , we're all on the same page . And if you don't think that way , you're breaking up our hive mind . Fellowship , our fellowship , is in this hive mind . This is our hive mind . That institution over there has that hive mind and this is how we have fellowship .
MelissaWe decide what mind we're of and then we all gather in that and , on that note , I just heard it said that there are something like 430 000 different types of christian doctrine yeah , what ?
Lennyand then if you go into an institution and try to share something that you see to be true and that you're passionate about , you get asked to leave and you get accused of disrupting fellowship or sinning in some way . And then even people who don't promote church have let this be pervasive in their lives , this attitude to the point where they feel like they're sinning if they don't go to church . They feel like they're sinning if they break up any kind of fellowship with error . Because these people were happy in their error . I should leave them alone . And so you're letting people unite in error in the name of Christ .
LennyAnd I'm not saying that we have any God-given right to go around and break up these churches and cause problems . I'm not even suggesting that , because it's pointless . You're going to be asked to leave . You're going to make an occupation out of going church to church and arguing Come on , that's stupid , that's not how anything's going to get done . But if we continue to support these things and continue to pretend like we're the problem and just oh , I just got to lay off , I have to silence myself . We're not helping the problem . If you believe that both political parties , for example in our government were evil . How are you benefiting anybody by participating in that system ?
MelissaYou're really not .
LennyYou're supporting a broken system in that analogy and I'm not trying to say one way or the other , what you have to believe but if that were the case , if you had a broken system , broken governing system , two candidates that are evil , what happens when you vote for one of them ?
LennyThe broken system continues and you continue to help it along and encourage it , and that's why we still have churches like this today , because nobody cares . They say , well , what am I going to do ? And then , what do we do in response ? What are the truth seekers , the people that know truth , do in response ? Well , you should really go to a church if you can . And what does that ? Do ? You have somebody you really respect , that you follow let's say a podcast , or a pastor that you follow and he says I understand that you can't go , but you really should . What do you think that your attitude is going to be about church ?
MelissaYou're feeling like you're doing something wrong if you don't go .
MelissaAnd I know you and I were there . We had a period of time like that . It's a big paradigm shift . It's hard to accept that your pastor might not be teaching full truth and , like in our situation , if you try to talk to them and they don't care to hear what you have to say , that's another big paradigm shift . You just realize , whoa , I see how it is Okay . And then you and I prayed about it and we left for a while , tried to go back and it just didn't feel right because we were supporting a broken system and it seemed nobody cared to fix it .
LennyThey just want to brush you out and move on and not have any kind of arguments .
MelissaSo for us , we believe there's no fellowship in error , and there were major doctrinal errors there . So God put it on our heart to step out and we began doing our own studies , and we've never been so rooted in Christ .
LennyFor us . We never look back .
MelissaWell , we did go back at first , but after realizing , like what are we doing ?
LennyWe were really only going back because legalism hanging over our heads were saying you don't go to a church , but you're a christian yeah , we struggled with it a little bit because that's planted in your mind that you have to go to a church building and we try to go back and I'm not going to get into the whole story , but god sent us a loud , clear message . He did hey , stop feeling like this . You guys don belong here . And that's not a bad thing it's okay , because fellowship doesn't have to be in those buildings .
MelissaThat's right . He gave us a piece about it and we've never been so rooted and we never learned so much as we did once we left and we were free to figure out what the truth really is .
LennyYeah , we need to express ourselves in Christ . Figure out what the truth really is . Yeah , we need to express ourselves in Christ . If we're gathering with people that don't really want to grow in Christ , what good is it ? All I see when I look at churches is bondage to error and a severe suppression of spiritual growth , because you're not allowed to think for yourself in these environments . You're just not . If you go too far , you're going to get stopped , and so what's the solution ? Well , at the end of the day , if you keep acting up , just keep it to yourself and you can keep gathering with us . What good is that ?
MelissaIt's a terribly broken system . It makes me very sad . I wanted to share a verse in Ephesians I came across recently Ephesians 5.10 , where Paul's encouraging the truth to try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord . That's what he was encouraging the church to do , because we are equipped to do that . Christ lives in and through us . We have the ability , using God's written word and using prayer and clinging to Christ , we have the ability to try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord . I know you would agree , lenny , that the Lord gave us waking up to grace to do just that . That's our mission , yeah , to encourage the body of Christ to try to discern what's pleasing to the Lord .
LennyScripture and the writings from the apostles have a definite theme to them . They're trying to get people to be united in truth . That's the goal of fellowship , and when you look at the goal of the church institution , that's not what it is .
MelissaIt's not . It became something else .
LennyThey have decided that their truth is all that needs to be in that building . They can do that if they want to , but why are we supporting that kind of nonsense ? We can do better .
MelissaEspecially when we see , like you and I talked about what the early churches looked like .
LennyYeah , and on that note , what does it look like ? What is good fellowship ? So if good fellowship is getting together and going to church , it would follow that these mega pastors filling the stadiums understand fellowship better than anybody , wouldn't it ?
MelissaIf that were true .
LennyIf you only have a church of a dozen people or less . Where's your fruit , brother ?
MelissaYou might say , and that's if you don't understand what fruit is .
LennyRight , but you have people producing this idea of fellowship . That that's what it is is gathering , no matter what you believe , basically or somehow , just agreeing to disagree and attending an institution as fellowship . But the apostles didn't deem that as fellowship . Their fellowship was with truth .
MelissaI also had mentioned that I had heard there were something like 430,000 different types of Christian doctrine 430,000? .
LennyYeah , 400? , not 43? .
MelissaNo 430 . It's something like that and the 400,000 types of Christian doctrine , not like all kinds of faiths and religions . Ephesians , chapter 4, . Paul says I therefore , a prisoner for the Lord , urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling of which you have been called , with all humility and gentleness , with patience , bearing with one another in love , eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace . There is but one body and one spirit , just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call . One Lord , one faith , one baptism , one God and Father of all , who is over all and through all and in all but grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift . Therefore , it says he who descended on high , he led a host of captives and he gave gifts to men . In saying he ascended , what does it mean ? But that he had descended into the lower regions , the earth . He who descended is the one who also ascended , far above all the heavens , that he might fill all things . And he gave the apostles , the prophets , the evangelists , the shepherds , the teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry , for building up the body of Christ , until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God , to mature manhood , to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ , so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine , by human cunning , by craftiness and deceitful schemes . Rather , speaking the truth in love , we are to grow up in every way into Him , who is the Head , into Christ , from whom the whole body , joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped , when each part is working properly , makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love .
The Impact of Doctrinal Misinterpretation
MelissaI know that's a bit lengthy , but that really struck me and I believe he was talking about the apostles at that time , apostles and prophets . You know , paul was running a race and he completed his race and I believe we reached that completeness , the truth he was teaching at that time . He finished his race , so he got to the point he was supposed to get having us all be complete in Christ . So the things he was teaching at that time should be what we're clinging to today Throw away all these other doctrines . What are we doing ? And it was the whole body . He wanted the body of Christ to all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God , to mature manhood to the measure of god , to mature manhood to the measure of the stature , so the height of the fullness , completeness of christ . We can do that . Paul says we can . He says we can mature to that point amen to that .
LennyYou have a lordship doctrine that does a similar thing as discipleship doctrine , where we're describing how discipleship doctrine basically tells you you have to love like Christ in order for Christ to be your friend , kind of thing . Lordship doctrine would say the same thing . But if you don't do those things , it's not just a sign of a loss of fellowship , it's not a sign that you're out of fellowship or Christ isn't your friend , it's a sign that you're not saved . And so there's this terrifying bondage that those people are under that , when one goes from lordship to discipleship , there's a great relief . The only thing on the line is my relationship with god , and so one might think that they're now free where they weren't before , and in a sense they are , but it's still not all the way there right , we were talking about where the idea of discipleship doctrine might have come from .
LennyThere are some well-meaning people teaching it , but Well , the core theology about discipleship doctrine and the whole core of it being a fellowship issue comes from the doctrine that people make of fellowship not being the same as salvation . So they pulled discipleship out of belief and made discipleship and belief two different things . They pull apart one thing , which is just belief , and turn it into belief and discipleship Two categories . They do the same thing with salvation and fellowship . They just stretch salvation until it pulls apart and then they made two categories out of it . Fellowship and salvation are two different things now and they're not in scripture .
LennyI can assure you when it comes to our fellowship with God , our fellowship with God is unbreakable . When we're born again as Christians , we enter into unbreakable fellowship with God . This is a vine and branches relationship . The born-again Christian is not a branch that's going to get broken off of the vine which is Christ . So our fellowship with God is perfect because of Christ . But that's not always the sense that we see it used in Scripture . I've come to realize that when we see the word fellowship in Scripture , we often misinterpret that with this fellowship between us and God , when it's really talking about fellowship between people , between Christian and Christian . Our fellowship with other Christians isn't always perfect . Our fellowship with other Christians can become very weak when we are drawn to error and consumed in error instead of truth , and all that comes from a false understanding of 1 John . 1 John , 1.9 specifically , is a huge problem .
LennyI say this a lot , can't really say it enough . It's a big problem . That understanding of that passage is always what it comes down to when it comes to these doctrines . Before I talk about that some more , I wanted to say a bit about lordship doctrine and our experience with that view that we struggled under for a while , and not in a way that you would think Lordship doctrine teaches you to behave a certain way or it's a sign you're not safe . So we're contrasting and comparing discipleship and lordship and that what we discovered is that for several years we started to feel isolated because of truth we did because that's the psychological mess that can happen when we come to a greater truth than people are willing to accept .
LennyAnd that's why I can't say enough about how we got to encourage each other in truth , not error , because you have people that are waking up and struggling . So we woke up to truth and the message we were receiving wasn't 100 . True , there was some error mixed in there in subtle ways and we didn't pick up on it right away . We picked up on much of the truth , but not some of the error , and some of the error that we discovered later was that lordship doctrine had kind of mixed its way into the truth to the extent that suddenly , if you didn't believe it , the full gospel , the full way , the way we're sharing with you , guys like you , got to set yourself free if you didn't believe it . That way , it was a sign that you weren't a believer right now think about that for a minute .
LennyHow many people you know out there that don't have it quite right and all of a sudden you're worried about their salvation ? I wasn't worried about my own , but I started to wonder if I was even amongst Christians ever . Where are they all at Right ? Where are all the Christians ?
MelissaBecause with that 400-some-thousand number we put out there about the amount of Christian doctrines out there , you're going to have something different with someone today .
LennyBut when your message is radically different than all of them . I know for a fact that when you listen to different people that have had this experience , people that are out podcasting and sharing their experiences , there's a struggle , because people in the grace circles are not of a great number , and it tends to be that the people that call themselves christians tend to be our worst enemies with their words . I always think about this thing that paul was saying when he was talking about shipwrecked I was beaten 40 lashings minus one by the jews , and he's naming all these things , and one of the things that he names is that he was persecuted by false brothers .
MelissaYeah .
LennyAnd you think about that and you would normally think , at least in the mindset I had before at one time , I was just associating that with nonbelievers , false brothers , false believers . They weren't real believers . But if he's calling them brothers , is it necessarily an unbeliever or a brother that's not a brother . Or is he saying brothers that were in error , basically People that were believing falsely and persecuting him because he didn't agree with their beliefs , even though they were Christian ?
MelissaBased on what we experienced , it seems likely it could be the latter .
LennyI think it was the latter . I think it was the latter . I think it was very common , and with Judaizers and things , if you had a Christian that was in the Judaizer crowd , I think it could get ugly . I think they might have been facing death several times and people that were actually born again , and I think we'd see the same things today . If it was legal to persecute people in such ways , I think these churches might be stringing us up . If it was legal to persecute people in such ways , I think these churches might be stringing us up . Sorry , honestly , I think some of these churches would crucify Christ if it came down to it , because of his radicalness .
MelissaI know that's why we're doing what we're doing .
LennyYeah .
Understanding Fellowship and Truth in Christianity
LennySo I wanted to just talk a little bit about the classic old 1 John 1-9 passage . I just wanted to present a way of looking at this passage where you might be able to see it from a different angle . I think that when we misunderstand this passage , we make a major error and then we start to impose that error on other Christians . It's my belief that understanding this passage is very important . I think that the things that John is writing about in this first chapter of his letter it's about belief versus unbelief . Going into this first chapter , I believe what he's writing about is unbelief and he's writing it to believers so that they won't fall for that unbelief . I used to often say that this letter 1 John and the first chapter and sections of his letter weren't written to believers . My argument would be that it was written to believers and non-believers alike , evangelically right .
MelissaYes , but .
LennyI'm kind of presenting a different view under the same idea . Let's say it was written to believers , about unbelievers . Go into this with the view that he's writing to believers about unbelievers . We can take this view for a reason In 1 John 2 , verse 21, . He tells us that about unbelievers . We can take this view for a reason In 1 John 2 , verse 21, . He tells us that .
LennyYou often hear this argument it was written to believers . It was written to believers , period . Because he says it was . He says I'm writing to you guys and he's talking about believers . But this is where you come to realize it's not necessarily to unbelievers , it's about them . It could be to them , it could . Hey , I want these guys to hear this . Yeah , but he specifically says to these believers I write to you not because you do not know the truth , but because you know it and because no lie is of the truth .
LennyWho is of a liar ? But he who denies that jesus is the . This is the Antichrist . He who denies the Father and the Son . No one who denies the Son has a Father . Whoever confesses the Son has a Father . Also , let what you heard from the beginning abide in you , if what you heard from the beginning . Abides in you , then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father , and this is the promise that he made to us Eternal life . I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you . I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you . Did you hear that ?
MelissaYes .
LennyBut the anointing that you receive from him abides in you . He's telling them that the anointing abides in them , which means they abide in Christ and you have no need that anyone should teach you . But as his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and is no lie , just as it has taught you abide in him . And what do we say ? Abide in him means Remain . Just remain , remain in him . How do you remain in him ?
MelissaTo remain in him . He's in us and we're in him . We're born again . So that's just our state of being is remaining in him .
LennyAnd what is it that we remain in based on this ? They're talking about Christ's truth . Christ is setting you free . What is it that we're remaining in ?
MelissaThe gospel .
LennyWe're remaining in the truth about Christ . Right , his finished work , he did it all . That's what we're remaining in . To abide in Christ is to abide in him in his work . It's not to abide in his behavior , because you can't Abide in his behavior means to abide in what he did for you . We might actually behave more like him if we understood that . So true , because he abided in the Father .
MelissaYes .
LennySo if abide is to believe , then why is he telling his fellow Christians to abide ? Why would anybody tell a Christian to abide in Christ if abide is to believe ? And I think the answer to that is far more simple than we realize . When we're a born-again Christian , we can still stop believing . These people that John was writing to were being deceived . They were no longer believing the truth about the finished work of Christ Yeshua . So what we then see is belief in two different ways . It's not two different ways of believing . There's the way of believing that you were saved by and you went into salvation , and then there's the belief that you have to continue in . You have to abide in the finished work of Christ . You have to abide in belief . This might well be the biggest problem in our church today . Just like those who John wrote to , we have largely forgotten about the finality of the cross and have put ourselves into a mindset of unbelief . We have born-again Christians doubting the finished work of the cross and even going up against it . John is calling on these Christians to continue abiding in what they believed in the beginning , abiding in the truth that saved them . If you weren't saved by works , how can you suddenly be made right by works . If you were saved by grace , why don't you live by grace ? It's that simple .
LennyIn light of that , I just wanted to read through this passage . So this is 1 John . It's pretty much the first chapter . We'll just kind of read through it and talk about it a little bit .
LennySo he starts out . That which was from the beginning , which we have heard , which we have seen with our eyes , which we have looked upon and have touched with our hands , concerning the word of life . The life was made manifest and we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us . That which we have seen and heard , we proclaim also to you so that you too may have fellowship with us , and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son , jesus Christ . It's a lot to take in right there . Why is he proclaiming this to believers ? Why is he doing that ? It's a reminder . He's just reminding , reminding them . He's reminding them of things they already know , and he said that we just read in chapter two you know these things . I'm writing to you about those who are deceiving you . So it's like hey guys , guess what christ is lord remember and we always need reminders .
MelissaThat's why we're to we're to be constantly clinging , reminding ourselves .
LennyWhat happens when you're being deceived . That means you're starting to believe something that's not true . These people were starting to believe the liars that Christ didn't do it all . They weren't abiding anymore because they stopped believing . He writes so that they would have fellowship with them and indeed their fellowship was with the Father and His Son , jesus Christ . I write these things so that our joy may be complete . So when we look at fellowship , this is a different view of fellowship . He's saying this to believers I write this to you so that you can have fellowship with us . Our fellowship is with the son , the son of god , and with the father . We have fellowship with christ , in truth , and we write these things to you so that you can have fellowship with us .
LennyHe was writing this to believers so that , I think , is what confuses people , and rightly so . They're like oh well , so fellowship could somehow be broken , and that's where they come up with that . But he's not talking about fellowship in the sense of what we read in most other passages , where it's the same as salvation . He's talking about fellowship in truth . He's talking about human fellowship with one another . When we have human fellowship with one another , what is it in ? If it's Christian fellowship it's in truth . Therefore , if we're fellowshipping with people in error , that doesn't really qualify as Christian fellowship . Even if we both believe , we're not really accomplishing any kind of fellowship .
LennyAccording to the context that I see in this passage , I see he's not talking about behavior . He's talking about fellowship in true doctrine . That's why he's proclaiming true doctrine to them . See what I'm saying , right ? It's a matter of how you see fellowship in that passage and how we perceive it . If you start perceiving that as salvation , it starts getting confusing . If you start perceiving it as being wrong or right with God , for some reason , we start to build a funny doctrine . But all he's saying is I want you guys to have fellowship with us so that we can have joy , so that my joy will be complete . He says I want to have a joyful fellowship with you guys , and the only way we can do that is if we're talking about the same stuff . And the only way we can do that is if we're talking about the same stuff , is if we're rejoicing in the same stuff and it's not the stuff that these guys are telling you . You're not going to share joy with me . Then See what I mean , right ? So we read on .
LennyHe says this is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you God is light and in him is no darkness at all . If we say we have fellowship while we walk in the darkness , we lie and do not practice the truth . And if we look at John's gospel and I want to do this eventually , I was telling you I want to do a John's gospel versus epistle because there's so many parallels . But the people that walked in darkness were the non-believing Pharisees , the false teachers that spoke out against Christ and against his finished work . So he's talking about Judaizers here . It's very clear if you compare and contrast these two things .
LennyBut if we walk in the light , he says , as he is in the light , we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus , his son , cleanses us from all sin . Now he's talking about salvation fellowship . What fellowship is it ? It's fellowship with Christ . If we walk in the light , because Christ is in the light , meaning we have Christ , we have fellowship with one another .
LennySo he's more or less saying like come on , guys , stop fellowshipping with error . Fellowship in where you're at , you're of the light . See what I mean ? Wow , he's pointing out to them that we have this fellowship , but yet he's having to tell them I want this with you because they're drifting away from truth . It's not because they're not in the light , it's because they're starting to act like they're not believing . They're starting to proclaim unbelief with their words and there's no fellowship in that . And he says if we say we have no sin , we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us . Who would have said they have no sin ? Pharisees thought they were perfect , based on the law . They didn't think they had sin . They didn't think they needed Messiah because they were doing all the stuff right .
MelissaRight .
LennyIf we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness . So if these people that denied sin would just say I'm a sinner and accept the Messiah , these Judaizers that are in the darkness , if they would just say , I believe he'd cleanse them . This is what he's telling them about those who are deceiving them , those people who are deceiving you . If they did this , they'd be saved and they'd be clean . Then he goes on to say if we say we have not sinned , we make them a liar and his word is not in us . There again , denying sin doesn't get you anywhere . It's no good , my little children , I'm writing these things to you so that you may not sin . But if anyone does sin , just go back to 1 John 1.9, . He says , just kidding . He says but if anyone does sin , we have an advocate with the Father , jesus Christ , the righteous . Right after telling you what people see people see this saying that we have to ask for forgiveness for our sins , that we have to self-cleanse regularly to stay in fellowship right after proposing what people see as this idea , he tells them we have an advocate . He's the propitiation for our sins , meaning the full satisfaction for our sins . If we do sin , we have a full satisfaction . Why would he tell you that right after telling you to confess and ask for forgiveness over and over ? Why would he remind you of that ? Because that's not how he saw sin . That's not how he saw it . He was telling you Christ did it all , and he said not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world , gentiles too . And by this we know that we have come to know him . If we keep his commandments you got to keep the 10 commandments , melissa , you know the whole 613 if you keep those , if you obey those no , that's not what he's saying if you keep those , if you keep the truth of christ , if it's yours to keep , that's how you've come to know him .
LennyWhoever says I know him but does not keep those commandments is a liar . So the Pharisees , the Judaizers , oh , they say that . Oh , they got it all figured out . They didn't keep the truth of Christ , they didn't buy it , they didn't believe it . Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way which he walked by faith . It's that simple . Keeping his commandments is keeping the gospel . And who keeps the gospel ? Those who the Father has given him . Everyone who believes has been given to Christ by the Father , bypassing your human ability , so that you can be guaranteed and assured that salvation and fellowship are yours . To keep , all you have to do is believe it . Believing is keeping and you can't stop . Anyway it's yours . But he's saying hang on to that , to the effect of what you were saying Cling , cling to that .
LennyThat's where I think discipleship doctrine stems from that view . I think those two things go hand in hand . That whole fellowship and the whole idea of being a disciple keeps you in fellowship . It's one and the same . We could pretty much have never even covered discipleship , because we cover fellowship all the time . It's the same thing . It's the same error , just in a different way with a different stamp on it . I kind of don't really like stamping the word discipleship on Christianity for that reason . It doesn't mean that it's wrong to think you're a disciple , it's just what it's turned into has kind of become crazy . I think that's what we got for this week and I'm looking forward to seeing you guys next week for some more .
AnnouncementHave a great day out there , you guys , thank you for listening to the Waking Up to Grace podcast brought to you by the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ . If you enjoyed today's episode , we would love to hear from you . You can send encouragement our way right from our episodes and transcripts page or reach Lenny privately from the contact form at wakinguptogracecom .