Unveiling Female Apostles in Scripture

announcement 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Waking Up to Grace podcast where we celebrate and explore the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ . Tune in to the Waking Up to Grace podcast on every major platform . You can also listen to our episodes and read our full transcripts at wakinguptogracecom . And now here's Lenny . Welcome back to the podcast everyone .

Melissa 0:24

Welcome back to the podcast . Everyone , Welcome back .

Lenny 0:26

This week we're going to be discussing the woman apostle and I think , on the note of woman apostle , it's important that we realize that when we consider whether or not we have apostles today , we have to understand that the mission the apostles were sent on was fulfilled , and not only that . All prophecy has been fulfilled . The destruction of Jerusalem and the once holy temple marked the end of the old covenant age of the law . The new covenant age , which began at the cross , is now fully established . The work of Christ Yeshua is finished . We no longer have any use for apostles and prophets and they no longer come in the name of the Lord . I would say , now that no longer come in the name of the Lord . I would say now that they mostly come in the name of prophet margins . So maybe we need to change the spelling of prophet in this new covenant age to P-R-O-F-I-T . What do you think , Melissa ?

Melissa 1:17

Sadly , it's true .

Lenny 1:19

But today we have a very interesting topic to look at , don't we ? Oh yeah , at the end of our letter from Paul to the Romans , we read of a female apostle .

Melissa 1:28

Can this be for real ?

Lenny 1:30

I think it is . If you look at this passage in your Bible , though , you could easily miss it . It's literally been lost in translation .

Melissa 1:39

Completely buried .

Lenny 1:40

I was reading Romans one evening , and you remember this , melissa . Yes , one evening before bed I'm reading my literal evening , and you remember this , melissa . Yes , one evening before bed I'm reading my literal translation of the New Testament by David Bentley Hart and suddenly this female apostle was revealed . I was shocked and quite excited about this new revelation , so I had to do some studying to make sure I woke up and it was like time to dig in .

Melissa 2:04

I was like wait what .

Lenny 2:06

But when you look at scripture , women prophesying was a fulfillment of prophecy and it was happening all throughout that first century age of signs and wonders . Yes , we read about instances in the book of Acts and the prophet Joel predicted it before it even happened . He said and it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh , and he was referring to what started at Pentecost . Right when they received the Spirit , these things started taking place and they went on all the way up until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD .

Melissa 2:47

Incredible .

Lenny 2:48

What an age to live in . Excitement and tragedy . But based on that alone , we can see that the Lord clearly has no issue with women being a strong voice in the church , does he ?

Melissa 3:00

Clearly .

Lenny 3:01

And when we seek to understand our apostolic writings , we will find that the apostles didn't have an issue with this either . In fact , they fully supported it . The gospel united all people . We're now brothers and sisters in Christ , apart from what we are in this world . In Galatians 3.28 , paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek , there is neither slave nor free , there is neither male nor female . But does that mean the church has always saw it the spiritual way ? If they did , then why would Paul have to write these things in his letters ?

Lenny 3:39

I've heard it suggested that the author of Hebrews may have been a woman . Maybe it was not signed because of the view some had on women in the church in those times . Some have said I think this speculation has some valid points to it . For example , in Paul's letter to the Corinthians we read the women should keep silent in the churches , for they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission , as the law also says . That's 1 Corinthians , chapter 14 , verse 34 .

Lenny 4:09

So what's going on here ? This doesn't sound like the same Paul that said in Christ there is neither male nor female . In fact , it doesn't sound like Paul at all when I read this passage . It's like Paul got taken hostage and someone else started writing . I don't think that's actually what happened , but how can we reconcile this with the rest of our scripture and even the rest of Paul's writings ? Some teachers say that women tended to have a lesser education and sat on the opposite side in the gatherings . In this case they'd be yelling across the group asking questions of the men . So you'd be like , hey , lenny , what was that ? In 1 Corinthians .

Melissa 4:46

Might be a little distracting and disruptive .

Lenny 4:50

Yeah , so Paul would be basically telling them to do that at home . In this scenario , Ask your husbands at home be silent in the church . I like the simplicity here , but there's one major problem . What law is Paul referring to here if he's telling us ? The law also says when we read this 1 Corinthians letter , we see that it was in response to the people that Paul wrote . In several areas there was a correspondence taking place within this letter .

Melissa 5:18

What a revelation . When we read the introduction to most Bible translations , they will tell you that there's no punctuation in the original Greek manuscripts . Quite important to note . There was no indication when they quoted others or quoted scripture . They didn't have quotation marks and they had no practice of making these indications for the reader but the recipients of the letter . They would have known the full context of the situation right . Yeah , we don't have that luxury . Thousands of years later we have to figure it out because we weren't there .

Lenny 5:54

Yeah , I mean , that's really something that takes some time to understand . You know , I think we're so used to just opening our Bible and say , what's God telling me today ? Yes , we've got to be careful with that . So you and I , melissa , I know that we believe that it was Paul's church that made that statement , not him . It was the Corinthian church saying the women should keep silent in the churches , for they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission , as the law says . That was Paul basically quoting them .

Lenny 6:24

Okay so if we look at it this way , paul's quoting them saying you say women should keep silent in the churches , as the law says , to which Paul then would respond what ?

Melissa 6:35

Or was it from you that the word of God came , or are you the only ones it has reached ? If anyone thinks that he's a prophet or spiritual , he should acknowledge that the things I'm writing to you are a command of the Lord . If anyone does not recognize this , he is not recognized . Interestingly , in the King James translation , it picks up on the fact that the opening word can be seen as shocking and alarming based on context . This really grabbed me when I realized this .

Lenny 7:08

Yeah .

Melissa 7:09

So this added emphasis would only be in your translation if the translator understood how to interpret the passage .

Lenny 7:17

Context .

Melissa 7:18

Context is king . This passage has stumped many in the church throughout history because of the way it's written .

Lenny 7:25

Yeah , if you don't recognize that , it sounds very choppy . It sounds like he just came out of the blue with this .

Melissa 7:32

Right .

Lenny 7:32

You're like what happened ? Did he just stop writing and then pick up somewhere else and forget what he said ? Yes , it's weird , but when you see it as a correspondence it becomes a lot less weird . And when you're paying attention all throughout that letter you start to make these connections . So I mean , what would it sound like if you were to emphasize what the King James picks up ? I mean , how would it read then ? So this is really cool .

Melissa 7:57

This is how it would read what Came the word of God out of you , or came it unto you ? Only , if any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual , let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord . So I can see what you were saying about Paul's reaction , paul's rebuking these guys for their error , saying that his teaching was commanded by God . Paul would have known that this was not the law , because it isn't , and he was once a very zealous Pharisee . Paul would not have misquoted the law in this way .

Melissa 8:37

Exactly it's not in the law . But would Christians have been swayed by Judaizers ? Yeah yeah , this is extremely probable , and we also know that the Talmud was spoken orally in the synagogues . In those days , the Talmud was not the law . It was the first century Jews' commentary on the law , and it was riddled with error . I mean , christ was constantly calling the Pharisees hypocrites over their Talmud , wasn't he ?

Lenny 9:09

Yeah , and so in those days the Talmud was known to be orally said , but later on it became written and it just kind of transformed into what it is today in so-called Judaism .

Melissa 9:23

Right . Paul would have been familiar with the Talmud and was likely setting straight the difference between true law and commentary .

Lenny 9:32

Yeah . So he's calling them out saying that's law . What ? What do you guys know about law ? Let me teach you . Yes , Because they didn't know about law . They were the Corinthians , they were probably mostly Gentiles and hearing this from Judaizers and Paul's like come on , guys , you and law .

Melissa 9:50

Right , right .

Lenny 9:52

Those two things don't work with you . Don't be going there , right .

Melissa 9:58

But then there was Paul's letter to Timothy , said to have been written in Ephesus Let a woman learn quietly , with all submissiveness . I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man . Rather , she is to remain quiet . For Adam was formed first , then Eve . That was 1 Timothy , 2 , 11-13 .

Exploring Junia's Apostleship in Romans

Melissa 10:23

In this instance we have the opposite situation happening Women were seeking to exercise authority over men . This was probably to do with the cult of Diana , which was the Roman version of the Greek Artemis cult . It was comprised exclusively of women and taught that Eve was created first , that only Adam was deceived by Satan and that females were inherently superior to males . So a little bit of error there . The influence of these women had evidently infiltrated the church and was causing disruption . Interestingly , our passage reads a woman , not women . The Greek leads us down the same road in various lexicons .

Lenny 11:13

Yeah , it's pretty interesting . It seems that there may have been a primary leader being called out and rebuked in this situation . Why , would he say a woman ? There was probably one particular leader , a ringleader , getting all the women riled up and empowered , and the men were just like I can't speak . It was like totally opposite . Women are like no , shut up , we have a few of those today too .

Lenny 11:37

And Paul's like no , that woman needs to be more submissive because she's completely out of control . So we wanted to mention those passages to gain some context for this study . But are you guys really ready to dig into this topic of a woman apostle ? Now there's more , we're just getting started .

Melissa 11:55

Awesome .

Lenny 11:56

So in Romans 16 , verse 7 , in the ESV translation we read Greet Andronicus and Junia , my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners . They are well known to the apostles and they were in Christ before me . So in our ESV translation we don't see a female apostle , do we ? No , in fact , we see the word kinsman . According to Webster , kinsman is defined as a relative , usually by birth , especially a male relative . So we read of two men here in the ESV translation , don't we ?

Melissa 12:31

That's how I've always seen it .

Lenny 12:33

We also read here that Junia was well known to the apostles , implying that he , in air quotes , was not an apostle himself . We observe a similar thing in the King James . Salute Andronicus and Junia , my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners who are of note among the apostles who also were in Christ before me . The difference we see in the King James is that the two were of note among the apostles rather than well known to the apostles . You see the difference .

Melissa 13:05

Yeah , and it's quite a difference .

Lenny 13:06

Yeah , well known to implies they weren't well known . Among implies that they were . There's a big difference . It's polar opposites , wow . So let's see what the NASB translation did with this . In the NASB of Romans 16 , 7 , we read Greet Andronicus and Junius , my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners who are outstanding among the apostles who also were in Christ before me .

Melissa 13:34

All of a sudden , they are apostles . They're among them .

Lenny 13:37

Yeah , and not only that , but outstanding . However , Junia is suddenly Junius . What is that all about ?

Melissa 13:47

Right .

Lenny 13:48

This time Junia becomes Junius and is an outstanding apostle .

Melissa 13:53

Quite a difference .

Lenny 13:56

So we're going to have to see Jung's literal translation now , aren't we ?

Melissa 13:59

Yes .

Lenny 14:00

So Jung's literal translation reads Salute Andronicus and Junius , my kindred and my fellow captives , who are of note among the apostles who also have been in Christ before me . So the literal translation of Young's uses Junius again , but again places both of them among the apostles , which would make both of them apostles without a doubt .

Melissa 14:24

Why such a shocking change ?

Lenny 14:27

Yeah , so it seems that ESV is a bit outnumbered here in their view of them only being known to the apostles . They're the only one in these four translations that we looked at to see it that way . But then all of the translations except Young's use the word kinsmen to describe Andronicus and Junia . Young's literal translation said kindred . As we noted earlier , kinsmen implies male relations , not female . But our Young's literal translation came up with a different word here , and so did David Bentley Hart's literal translation , which read kinsfolk . Kindred is very similar to kinsfolk and according to Webster , kindred is defined as of similar nature or character , of the same ancestry , a group of related individuals , one's relatives , family relationship . So really what we see is that Paul saw them as family according to our literal translations , not specifically as men , just family , I see it so , based on this , do you think we need to go to the Greek to check up on these scholars ?

Melissa 15:39

Absolutely .

Lenny 15:40

Let's go there . The word we see translate as kinsmen in most Bible translations , except for the literal ones , is now don't judge me on this , on my Greek songanes . I didn't listen to it beforehand , I should have and according to Strong's it means a relative by blood , by extension a fellow countryman , cousin , kinsfolk , kinsmen . And then according to Vine's it means cousin . So they reference the word being used in Luke more than once and they say it's like cousins respectively signify kinswoman and kinsfolk and the word literally signifies born with , of the same stock or descent . Hence kinsman , kindred , kin , kinsfolk , kinswoman . So we see Strong's mention the male usage kinsmen , kindred , kin , kinsfolk , kinswoman . So we see Strong's mention the male usage kinsmen , while Vines points out that kinswoman seems to be tied to the common context of the word used in other areas of scripture but , like Strong's , also sees it as kinsfolk . So it seemed most reasonable to have translated this word as kindred or kinsfolk if it was not 100% certain that we were dealing with two men . So I think our literal translations did well by us there .

Melissa 17:00

Agreed .

Lenny 17:01

We're going to look at the history soon to see if Junia can be found as a male name anywhere in history , and this should help us to decide the way we should interpret this text . But before we explore that history , let's look at the Greek to see if these two were even apostles at all . Let's make sure that they were apostles . So according to Strong's , the Greek word translated to among , as in known among the apostles and in ESV was known to the apostles . It's this word en E-N .

Lenny 17:36

It's a primary preposition denoting fixed position in place , time or state and , by implication , instrumentality , medially or constructively . I know it's kind of a lot to take in , but it'll start to make sense here . So the King James Version translates N in the following manner 1902 , so 1,902 times . It's saying it was in , and then 163 times by it's translated with 140 times , and then we see it as among 117 times , at 113 times , on 62 times , through 39 times and then it was used miscellaneously , 264 times . So if we go with the by far most common usage , it would be that Andronicus and Junia were in the apostles . So based on the common use of the word , it is by far most probable that these two were in fact apostles , and all of these variations of the word describe a very close relationship to something , but in that's as close as you can be to being an apostle . If you're in the apostles , the word among makes more sense , but it's describing that they're in with them , they're among them .

Lenny 18:59

They are in the group of the apostles .

Melissa 19:03

Yes Wow .

Lenny 19:04

So making it read as two must fall into the miscellaneous category somewhere , because it's not even listed as a common usage . So I think our ESV let us down there pretty badly . I love that translation , but we've got to be paying attention because there's mistakes in interpretation . They're supposed to be translating , but translation has this funny way of blending with interpretation .

Melissa 19:29

And sometimes the translators are biased .

Lenny 19:32

Well , we're all biased . Probably always , we're all biased in some way in the way that we , with interpretation , and sometimes the translators are biased . Well , we're all biased . Probably always , we're all biased in some way in the way that we view scripture . We're either biased towards truth or we're biased towards error . We hope to be biased towards truth , don't we ?

Melissa 19:42

Yes .

Lenny 19:44

So , Melissa , let's look at the recorded history and see if we can find anything helpful to this argument , shall we ?

Melissa 19:50

We shall the early church father , John Chrysostom , upheld the fact that this Junia was a female apostle of great wisdom .

Lenny 20:01

And I just wanted to pause . We say early church father because that's just what people know them , as that's what they're always referred to , as we don't see them as any kind of father above us and a lot of people get bothered by that usage because it paints a funny picture .

Melissa 20:18

Yes .

Lenny 20:24

You know , when Paul referred to himself as a father , most grace teachers and people that understand grace see that as because of his age , because of his older . You know , because he was older than them , not because he saw himself as somehow above them in the Christian life .

Melissa 20:36

Very important to point out .

Lenny 20:38

But he did express his apostolic authority at times . But I don't think that's why he said I'm your father , you're my son , son . So John Chrysostom saw Junia as a female apostle of great wisdom . He did that's pretty cool , yeah .

Melissa 20:54

In later centuries , due to anxiety about women church leaders , junio was changed to Junius to sound more male . It was supposedly a variation of the name Julianus . The first to make this argument would have been Giles of Rome . Interestingly , it is said that he probably knew no Greek .

Lenny 21:15

I thought that was pretty interesting . I was reading about that in that literal translation by David Bentley Hart . He was noting a lot of these historical facts .

Melissa 21:25

So they were letting the guy that knows no Greek take the lead and make the decision .

Lenny 21:29

Yeah , so literally , this leader of Rome , you know , just makes this announcement , doesn't even know Greek and is saying this Greek name is this and not that .

Melissa 21:40

But this view stuck nonetheless . It reminds me a lot of what we see in our society today .

Lenny 21:46

Yeah .

Melissa 21:47

The problem here is that scholars who looked at the evidence have declared that in all of recorded history there is no use of the name Junius as a male figure anywhere . There's nothing . It was just another classic case of mankind making stuff up .

Lenny 22:05

Yep .

Melissa 22:05

So to hear of it nowhere . That really says something .

Lenny 22:10

Yeah , there's no historical evidence of that name , they just made it up Old guiles .

Melissa 22:17

Based on real evidence , I believe we can safely conclude this to be a female apostle .

Lenny 22:23

I agree that's cool . That's I agree , that's cool , that's really cool .

Melissa 22:26

That's way cool and that fits a lot more with the Paul that we know in all of his other letters .

Lenny 22:32

Yeah .

Melissa 22:33

On top of that , it's impossible to ignore that he acknowledges them as a pair , just as he does with only certain others , including Prisca and Aquila , who are known to be husband and wife according to our scriptures .

Lenny 22:48

Yep , and some say Priscilla and Aquila .

Melissa 22:50

They do , which is kind of fun , like a little rhyme .

Lenny 22:53

Yeah .

Melissa 22:54

I love that , because you and I are in this together . Yep , and to further drive this point home , our messenger Phoebe , whom we spoke of in our introduction . There is much to say about her alone , not to mention plenty of other women in our scripture , about the saints , and help her in whatever she may need from you , for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well . Quite a compliment from Paul .

Lenny 23:33

Yeah .

Melissa 23:34

That's Romans 16 , 1-2 . A servant here comes from the Greek word diakonos and can also mean minister , attendant deacon . Yes , that would make it possible for women to be deacons , which would be a form of overseer .

Lenny 23:53

Yep .

Melissa 23:54

But it gets better , lonnie . Inconceivable A patron , as said , of Phoebe here , comes from the Greek word prostasis and can also mean protectress , champion , leader . What I said , leader .

Lenny 24:12

No , a woman leader . You can't have women going around leading stuff .

Melissa 24:17

Melissa A woman champion from the lips of Paul .

Lenny 24:21

Oh man .

Melissa 24:22

But of course , if we don't regard context , we can just knock that down to the least possible meaning and move on .

Lenny 24:29

Let's just keep it at Junius , okay . Well known to the apostles .

Melissa 24:35

Can't close your eyes to truth . Once you've seen it , can't unsee it , but we have to remember there's neither Jew nor Greek . There's neither slave nor free . There is neither slave nor free . There is neither male nor female , for you are all one in Christ Jesus . Galatians 3.28 I love that , amen .

Lenny 24:56

That's the real Paul right there , isn't it .

Melissa 24:59

That's the Paul we know and love .

Lenny 25:01

Women are much needed in the church and their voices need to be heard . Don't believe everything you hear at the pulpit . If you stop your research at the pulpit , you're missing out on your God-given freedom . Take back what is yours , your God-given gift of freedom in Christ . In regards to a marriage , we do believe there is a spiritual structure and that women are very different than men in this way .

Melissa 25:26

Yes , we do .

Lenny 25:27

Paul gives us a beautiful view of this balance in Ephesians 5 , while making a parallel to Christ and the church . We'll certainly talk about that more at some point , but if you are married , that is some great stuff . David Curtis had some good messages on that . I believe it was around the time , or combined with that federal headship message that he did , that I'd linked in our introduction to the Romans messages . We don't share his view on women in the church , but we loved his view on marriage . It was really good .

Melissa 25:54

Yes .

Lenny 25:56

So that's all we got for you guys today , and we are going to see you again next week with another hot topic . And we got a good one brewing . I think I'm going to keep it a surprise . I'm going to keep it a surprise , I'm going to make it a surprise .

Lenny 26:08

No spoiler alert . No spoilers . If you click on the episode description of our podcast , there's a link to our episode transcript page where you can correspond with us , leave us some feedback , share some insights , things like that . We encourage you guys to do that . You can also if you're on a media platform . If there's a way to make comments there , feel free to do so as well . We'd love to hear from you guys , and it helps build the activity . Amen For a new Christian podcast . We love to have some activity , don't we ?

Melissa 26:40

We sure do , and please remember together we are the church . Amen . Have a great day out there , everyone . See you next week .

announcement 26:50

Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to Grace podcast brought to you by the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ . If you enjoyed today's episode , we would love to hear from you . You can send encouragement our way right from our episodes and transcripts page or reach Lenny privately from the contact form at wakinguptogracecom .