Announcement: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Waking Up To Grace podcast, where we celebrate and explore the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Tune in to the Waking Up To Grace podcast on every major platform. You can also listen to our episodes and read our full transcripts at wakinguptogracecom. And now here's Lenny.

Lenny: 0:27

Welcome to the Waking Up to Grace podcast. Melissa and I are back in action and getting ready to kick off a study on Romans Paul's letter to the Romans, aren't we?

Melissa: 0:36

That's right. We are so excited to start this journey together of having Saturday morning study discussions.

Lenny: 0:44

Yeah, so we're going to collect all the things that we're looking at in the morning, waking up to grace.

Melissa: 0:50

Yeah, we should probably quickly describe what that looks like for us. It's different for everyone. Yeah. We like to wake up, make our pot of coffee, and then we each do our own thing for about an hour. Yeah.

Melissa: 1:01

Our own study, whatever's on our hearts, our own bit of reading, and then throughout the week we discuss it, and we wanted to try to capture that in a natural way. So we thought if we came together on Saturday mornings we could collaborate our notes and help each other, as well as anyone who would like to listen out there.

Lenny: 1:24

Yes, because we realized these conversations were just so much fun, so much passion in them when we're talking about things of the spirit. It was like how do we get that into a recording? I think we may have figured it out here, so we'll see what happens. We were going to start with an introduction to the letter to the Romans and then we went to these cultural study Bibles that we have. I thought I should check that out and see what they have for an introduction to the letter, and what we found was there is an introduction to Paul's ancient letters. That kind of like starts off even like an intro of an intro and we were like that's pretty cool, Intro of an intro, yeah, so that's what we're going to kind of start by talking about some of that.

Melissa: 2:05

It's the NIV Cultural Background Study Bible and I know you wanted to say, Lenny, that it's not that we're recommending the commentary.

Lenny: 2:14

There's just some good historical background there that we can discern from it.

Melissa: 2:19

But of course, as everything, we have to have our gospel glasses and gospel earmuffs on.

Lenny: 2:24

Yeah, and discern carefully, but this stuff was awesome. We were really liking this intro.

Melissa: 2:29

Yes, this is lining up for me and making a lot of sense, so helpful to see what the people of that time were thinking. Yeah. What the style of communication was. So let's dive right in. Why don't you share what you learned?

Lenny: 2:42

Yeah, and just how communication was in general in the ancient world. It's like you kind of know these things, I think, or you kind of picture them in your head, to kind of think about it in more depth and really paint that picture of what it would have been like then. I found it to be pretty awesome.

Melissa: 2:58

I had some ideas, but it actually blew my mind this is more detailed you know detailed than you just think in your head, right?

Lenny: 3:06

It's just hard to get out of that mentality where I just write a letter, paper and pen.

Melissa: 3:12

It's always right there.

Lenny: 3:13

I'm not going to get into exactly how they had to write the letters, but communication was difficult and expensive in the ancient world when these letters were written.

Melissa: 3:25

Expensive, that's wild, yeah Difficult.

Lenny: 3:26

Yeah, so the average letter because of that would be about 87 words. They say so. I mean that's not a lot of words, it's not. And if you look at for comparison, you look at the third of John's epistles, it's about 220 words.

Melissa: 3:43

That's the shortest epistle we have in our scripture. That's a whole lot more than 87.

Lenny: 3:45

Then you have Philemon, which I'm probably saying that like a Jamaican about 338 words. Those alone blew the 87 word mark out of the water. So it makes you think like, okay, these are more than ordinary letters. An ordinary letter would have consisted of like a greeting and some news. An ordinary letter would have consisted of like a greeting and some news. You know, probably short greeting, short news. If you went up to like an intellect writing to their peers, you might get up to like 300 to a thousand words.

Melissa: 4:15

Okay.

Lenny: 4:16

Guess how many words are in Paul's letter to the Romans.

Melissa: 4:20

It about. Knocked my socks off to see that there were 7,000 words. That's wild. Yeah, over 7,000 words. That's wild.

Lenny: 4:26

Yeah, over 7,000 words in Roman. So it's written that, comparatively, today that would cost over $2,000. And that was written before the economic disasters that our government caused.

Melissa: 4:39

Right.

Lenny: 4:39

Imagine what it would cost now.

Melissa: 4:41

Probably more like $10,000 or more. I mean, if you just stop for one minute and think about that, how incredible that is. We were saying we have pen and paper everywhere. Turn around, there it is. You don't like what you wrote, crumple it up, throw it away. You need a different pen. Reach across the table, it's all right there. It costs you practically nothing.

Lenny: 5:04

Yeah, so I mean even at $2,000, it's mind-blowing.

Melissa: 5:08

That's mind-blowing.

Lenny: 5:09

You know, all things aside, I mean today $20,000. Maybe tomorrow $30,000, based on how things are heading.

Melissa: 5:18

You already bumped it to $20,000. I was at $10,000.

Lenny: 5:22

I don't have an optimistic view of our government Anyhow.

Melissa: 5:26

But that's okay. They're trying to help us, right we do of Christ.

Lenny: 5:30

Yes, we have a very positive outlook spiritually, and that's why none of that really affects us too heavily.

Melissa: 5:36

Because he controls history.

Lenny: 5:38

Exactly so. Paul's letters were not only greetings and news, like was common in ancient letters. They were persuasive arguments. So because of that scholars associate most DePaul's letter with speeches. More than ordinary letters it's more comparative to an ancient speech. I mean who would have written a speech in a letter?

Lenny: 5:59

Right you know it wasn't common. What was common, though, in urban Greek and Roman culture, was this oratorical skill that they called rhetoric, and this rhetoric is something that we're going to be touching on. I know you had some good notes on Melissa, but this rhetoric would have been used in all their public assemblies. So whether it be a funeral or a court, anything like that, anything public, they would have been using this rhetoric. It was a professional way of speaking, basically, but to what degree this rhetoric shaped Paul's letters is argued. However, most agree that he made use of it, at least in common forms.

Melissa: 6:39

Right, we were both reading this article and coming together sharing how we were intrigued by this. When you first hear someone saying have you ever noticed Paul's letters contain persuasive argumentation? What would your first thought be?

Lenny: 6:58

like a con a little bit you look at it a certain way, if you're not really thinking of the true definitions of the words, which is probably the first thing that I do and we do as Americans. We tend to not really take the fullness of the word.

Melissa: 7:12

Yeah, or how about Paul uses rhetoric in his letters Like persuading?

Lenny: 7:17

Yeah, persuading. It would be like a child persuading their parent. I want this. You know, like, what are you trying to do here? What are you trying to persuade me to do? But I think we've kind of lost the gift of persuasion. Our country persuasion is maybe just always a negative thing. Don't try to persuade me. I believe what I believe.

Melissa: 7:35

It's kind of, it seems, associated with selfish gain. Could be, yeah. So I was feeling that way. As I'm reading this, I was getting defensive for Paul. He's not persuasive, you know. He's not cunning, he doesn't argue, cause strife.

Lenny: 7:52

Arguing alone sounds kind of negative. Why are you arguing with me?

Melissa: 7:55

Right, causing a fallout, arguing in itself for the sake of causing strife and rhetoric just sounds like a bunch of jabberwocky, which is a new word I learned. It can be jabberwocky, but it can also be sincere and genuine. To kick off what I learned here I do agree that Paul uses rhetoric in his speaking and I do believe that it's in a positive way is what I came to learn. Rhetoric was pervasive and it was highlighted in all public assemblies, like you were saying courts and funerals. The culture cherished it.

Melissa: 8:36

And Paul certainly does capture his audience with truth. Pervasive is to spread through every part of, to permeate, and I would say that Paul does capture his audience in that way with the gospel message. He makes sure that it saturates every part of your body. Yeah. The reason he's able to do that is because he has the gift of apostleship. It was a spiritual gift, so he was very effective at this, and it was for a good reason.

Lenny: 9:05

It might have helped that he was taught directly by Christ.

Melissa: 9:08

That might have helped a little. I would say a little so as I went along in the reading here, I came to find rhetoric does not have to be negative. It can be worldly or spiritual, contain truth or lies. The definition is the art of speaking or writing effectively, insincere or genuine or grandlinquent, bombastic, flowery, fine words, jabberwocky both are true so sort of like fluffing it up, fancifying it.

Melissa: 9:47

That would have been the pagan greek way right making it sound super fancy, like their philosophies had to have been so fancied up well, we know that they weren't believers in christ, so whatever they were speaking about apart from christ would have been not truth jabberwwocky, it would have been. Jabberwocky Is that a Star Wars character?

Lenny: 10:08

Yeah, I think it might be.

Melissa: 10:10

So, moving right along, I started defining more words, fascinated that some words that I thought were so degrading could actually be a compliment. And here's something amazing that I learned, leni, that I know you would never say this about me anyway. I love to argue. I couldn't believe it when I discovered this.

Lenny: 10:34

We're recording this, melissa. I have this recorded, just so you know. I learned, just letting it out, putting it out there.

Melissa: 10:42

I love to argue and I'm proud to say it, because the Apostle Paul loved to argue. Now let me explain. I learned that argue is not necessarily a negative word.

Lenny: 10:55

I knew you were going to go there Right. When you said I like to argue, I knew something was up with that.

Melissa: 11:03

Now, come on, don't spoil it for me here. This is what it means To give reasons for or against something, to contend or to strive, battle, compete, fight, race in words, to consider the pros and cons of to persuade by giving reasons. So what I want to say about that, to clear the air here about myself, I do like to do these things when it comes to truth.

Lenny: 11:34

And, on that note, one of our conversations that we're having is the fact that Christians should find argumentation and arguing to be beneficial because isn't that what we do?

Lenny: 11:49

How are you going to persuade anybody to the gospel of Christ or to a further depth of truth that could encourage somebody, without argumentation, because who's going to? When they're feeling a certain way, you're going to just say something and immediately oh that worked, thanks. Right, you might have to persuade them a little. Do you think that Christ himself and the apostles had to persuade him? I think, about what Christ was doing in his ministry.

Melissa: 12:18

You felt that Jesus spoke. Rhetoric the art of speaking or writing effectively.

Lenny: 12:24

Yeshua was a master at arguing using almost no words, sometimes, sometimes when the Pharisees would try to pin him.

Melissa: 12:35

Yes.

Lenny: 12:36

He would always win.

Melissa: 12:37

Every time.

Lenny: 12:38

They didn't believe him or like it, but his argumentation was spot on.

Melissa: 12:44

But it was a fact, yes, so yeah, I am getting to that. You're absolutely right. First, I broke apart argue and I was just amazed to see that, yes, it can mean to cause strife, to have a fallout. It can certainly be negative, but it's also absolutely positive and, like you just pointed out, a very necessary element of communication.

Lenny: 13:09

I'm going to say communication and spiritual growth. Thank you, I'm not saying you have to be an arguer. Salvation doesn't require it. But, as we've learned, salvation isn't where it stops. Salvation is the beginning of our journey. If you want a deeper knowledge of something spiritual, try explaining it.

Melissa: 13:27

Yes, that's what you've been sharing with me, how much you're learning as you're putting out our podcasts. Yes. I'm learning so much when I listen to your podcasts. And then you said try being the one putting them out and having to explain.

Lenny: 13:41

When you start arguing, even if it's just communicating it, you start to find out real quick where you need to do a little more studying to explain it better. And as you do that, your knowledge becomes deeper. So I'm not saying oh, you got to be a Christian podcaster, studying in the way of thinking. How would I explain this to somebody If? I want to explain this to my friend who's lost or who's struggling with legalism. Where do you start? Well, you start by trying to explain it.

Melissa: 14:12

You start by praying, praying for the Lord to open your eyes to all of his truth.

Lenny: 14:17

Yep, oh, absolutely. That's reading scripture. You're not going to reach anybody without God.

Melissa: 14:23

Right.

Lenny: 14:23

So, no matter how hard you practice, if you're not in connection with Yahweh, forget about it, people. It's going to fall on deaf ears, absolutely. That's a very good point. Yes and I know you know that. But it's so eye-opening to realize that Christ, Yeshua and his apostles, they were displaying argumentation, persuasive argumentation. So if you want to figure out how to have their wisdom, try to figure out how to persuade people with that kind of argumentation.

Melissa: 14:52

Learn how to get good at arguing.

Lenny: 14:53

I think if more people were trying to do that, rather than just trying to pull things out of context to prove their point, you might have a deeper knowledge of Christ. And's worth it god willing, of course right of course from the human standpoint, though, the church is a mess, but I'm not saying that's any different than either time in history it's not, and in some ways that's encouraging yeah, it's always a mess.

Lenny: 15:17

I mean, look at the writings that we read from the apostles. And he didn't say that. You didn't hear the apostles speaking the way I just spoke either. You didn't hear the apostles speak in the way I just spoke either. You didn't hear Paul say oh, the church is a mess throwing up his hands. No he was encouraging to them, and he might get harsh at times, but his letters were full of loving encouragement.

Melissa: 15:35

He was on a mission, he was running a race and, on that note, nothing was going to get in his way on his mission from God. I wanted to point out I thought it was interesting. We know that he was running a race because the end was near, christ was about to come on the clouds and the temple would soon be destroyed. So he did have a deadline. I also thought it was interesting.

Lenny: 15:59

Wait a minute, what you just said there, I thought Christ was still coming.

Melissa: 16:06

Is that why, you put out the episodes that you did on our podcast I thought it was interesting that at one point he noted he he hoped he was not running his race in vain yes so you're thinking, I always thought of a foot race which, like I just said, he was racing the end times. But could it have also been a race in words? If you remember, I defined argue to give reasons for or against something, to contend or to race in words that's a really good point so could he have been hoping that when you?

Lenny: 16:42

said that it blew my mind because I'd never meditate on that passage. God never revealed that angle to me and I was. I think you're right. I think you have that part right. I think that's the race.

Melissa: 16:54

I think it's both.

Lenny: 16:55

It could be. A lot of things can go two ways. When Yahweh is doing his prophecies, there's always a different angle, isn't there?

Melissa: 17:03

Yes.

Lenny: 17:04

To spot Israel and the true Israel Christ.

Melissa: 17:07

Come to find. Yes, we're learning a lot about the different angles.

Lenny: 17:10

So it wouldn't surprise me if Paul was using approach that Yahweh would use because he's a spiritual individual.

Melissa: 17:18

He was battling in words. He was battling for their souls in words.

Lenny: 17:25

Yeah, their life force.

Melissa: 17:26

That's beautiful.

Lenny: 17:27

Yeah.

Melissa: 17:28

He wanted them to keep on living eternally. Exactly yes, when it comes to truth, the Apostle Paul felt it absolutely necessary to argue, and of course he's going to do it persuasively. We're talking about people's souls here. Of course he's going to be looking to gain their attention.

Lenny: 17:48

And he's going to make some people upset.

Melissa: 17:50

You know that's going to happen along the way, but when you're talking about people's souls, isn't it? Worth it to make somebody upset. Yeah. I think so too. So you mentioned it is said that Paul's letters contain not only greetings and news, but also persuasive, which means effective, strong argumentation. I defined argumentation. Yeah. And it's the art of formal discussion.

Lenny: 18:20

It sounds really weak when you think of how people get so mad when you argue, isn't it Maybe, like our communication skills in our society are just that bad?

Melissa: 18:29

I believe they are.

Lenny: 18:31

And I'm just as guilty. You know, when I was a, you know really learning truth as a young Christian, it was just like man. You get triggered so easy and you don't know how to make that passion work in a loving way all the time and you come out a little bit intense, not like hateful, but maybe on the intense side. A hundred percent Right.

Melissa: 18:51

Right. I think that you and I growing up came specifically from a time where you didn't talk too much about your religion. Yeah. And Christianity is not a religion, it's a faith. You didn't talk much about it, it was kind of a private thing, yeah, and we're becoming really passionate. We started out very extreme and went from not talking about Jesus much at all to grabbing people and shaking them.

Melissa: 19:28

Not literally, but pretty close In our minds and they probably felt it saying you listen, there's so much more to know. You got to take this in. So argumentation Are your minds blown out there? Because I couldn't believe it. The art of formal discussion. I want to excel at persuasive argumentation.

Lenny: 19:48

Right, I mean people in our society don't have formal discussion. Our formal discussions are like what's the weather like out there? What do you think? Sunny day right, and that's if you're lucky. Look at the haze in the sky today. I haven't seen the sun in days. All the time you're here and it's like that's all we talk about.

Melissa: 20:05

Right, that's if you're lucky, because normally you just get an emoji. And don't get me wrong. I love emojis, but I don't want to speak only emoji. I only speak emoji.

Lenny: 20:16

Don't try to talk to me.

Melissa: 20:17

I only speak GIF and emoji.

Lenny: 20:19

I only text emojis.

Melissa: 20:20

We got to bring back the art of formal discussion, I mean when it comes to truth.

Lenny: 20:25

How else are we supposed to develop and grow with each other?

Melissa: 20:28

Exactly.

Lenny: 20:29

If we're not talking like this.

Melissa: 20:30

How can we help anyone?

Lenny: 20:31

It's ridiculous.

Melissa: 20:33

It is.

Lenny: 20:34

I'm done with it. Melissa.

Melissa: 20:39

Argumentation we define that. Persuasive is another word that can sound negative because it can mean forceful. It can mean to seduce, to tempt, to coax. That's nothing I want to be known for. How about you?

Lenny: 20:56

That sounds a little bit shady.

Melissa: 20:58

Right, something from a dark place.

Lenny: 21:00

What are you trying to sell me?

Melissa: 21:01

Right, exactly Sellelling ice to an Eskimo, kind of thing.

Lenny: 21:05

Yeah, you get 30 calls a day.

Melissa: 21:10

Junk calls. I think everybody does today. But persuasive can also mean conclusive convincing. To persuade is to prevail, to satisfy, to win. How about this one To talk Persuasive? When you put it that way, I totally see how Paul's letters. They're absolutely persuasive and I would like to be persuasive with people when it comes to the truth of the Lord and truly like.

Lenny: 21:37

These aren't qualities I desired before I became a Christian. It's like I don't need to know any kind of fancy words. I don't need to be a persuasive communicator. No, I don't like selling things In our business. It's like I like to prove ourselves through our work, not through persuasion.

Melissa: 21:53

Right.

Lenny: 21:54

So I didn't desire any of those things, but since becoming a Christian you realize the value. In communication and you start really having a passion. This is actually a lot of fun once you start getting into it.

Melissa: 22:06

Right, we realize the value in talking to each other. Right. Yeah. In all the growth that comes from one sentence of scripture that you and I discuss, sometimes one word that the Lord puts on our hearts, and then you just want to share it with everyone. You start thinking of all your loved ones and all the others in the church, the rest of the body of Christ, and you want everyone and imagine if we were all sharing our input.

Lenny: 22:30

Yeah.

Melissa: 22:30

Wow.

Lenny: 22:32

When I was reading one of my literal translations of the Bible that I got. That I thought was pretty cool. This guy did it pretty much on his own instead of committee of people, yeah, and it was just pretty cool and I'm reading the translation. His view is trying to do the most literal translation possible. He set out to make a literal translation of the Bible.

Melissa: 22:49

David Hart.

Lenny: 22:50

Yeah, David Bentley Hart. He said that he found it impossible to do a proper literal interpretation of Scripture without bias. The problem is is that when you're looking up context, to find the true meanings of the words you need context, and if you don't understand context, you can't translate it correctly. So that's why you're always going to have some bias in your Bible translations.

Melissa: 23:14

We're all thinking humans yeah.

Lenny: 23:17

And context is king.

Melissa: 23:19

I think what you're saying is that every Christian should pick up their Bible and read for themselves. I think that is what you're saying is that every Christian should pick up their Bible and read for themselves.

Lenny: 23:25

I think that is what I'm saying.

Melissa: 23:28

So we looked at the word persuasive and then there's persuasion using persuasion, and guess what that means? An opinion or a faith held with complete assurance. So you can be persuasive in a garbage opinion. You can also use persuasion in your faith, which you hold with complete assurance, which of course we see Paul doing.

Lenny: 23:55

Yeah, I mean you could persuade somebody using double talk, and that argument goes around in circles. Yeah, it never gets anywhere. There is that, but it sounds so convincing along the way, At the end of it you really don't believe anything.

Melissa: 24:09

So you wouldn't have complete conviction or certainty in your faith in that situation.

Lenny: 24:16

Exactly.

Melissa: 24:17

On the note of how it can be negative, they also mention a cult. They mention cults when they mention persuasion, and you can see that. So you can see how evil that word can sound. As soon as you say it, you're like, oh you're, proceed with caution yeah, but yeah, you think of like watchtower.

Lenny: 24:35

You know I'm knocking at your door. Right, they're persuasive. They most people won't even know how to have an argument with them. Right, they'll catch you off guard if you're not ready.

Melissa: 24:45

Absolutely true.

Lenny: 24:46

You'll be like wait a minute, is Jesus Lord.

Melissa: 24:49

Yeah, so persuasion does not have to relate to a cult. It can be, as in Paul's, the way he used it and the way that you and I are using it belief or faith conviction held with complete certainty. Belief or faith conviction held with complete certainty? The word oratorical that I defined in the Webster's Dictionary can mean inflated style of speech. So remember they cherished oratorical language, inflated style of speech and writing. Now that sounds again like something you wouldn't want to be known for negative. Yeah.

Melissa: 25:23

So we talked about Paul using persuasive argumentation, the art, formal discussion, but he was not an orator. He wasn't one of the intellects of the time. An orator is one noted for skill and power as a public speaker. They were very entertaining. But when it came to Paul, though he wasn't an orator, people listening to Paul speak are looking for this out of Paul. They're looking to be entertained.

Lenny: 25:50

Yeah, he was an apostle to the Gentiles. Predominantly he was speaking to these people that expected that kind of stuff.

Melissa: 25:57

Yeah, kind of like okay, you're up on the stage now dance.

Lenny: 26:00

Yeah, you go into a group of people speaking rhetoric and oratorical things like that, and then there's Paul.

Melissa: 26:07

We know that he was great at persuasive argumentation and used it a lot the art of formal discussion being convincing and conclusive but he wasn't an orator. He wasn't known for oratorical, inflated style of speech and writing, so I think that that turned people off. Then the things that he was saying were very bold and very direct to the church, to the believers. I'm sure they didn't like that. It didn't include everyone. Yeah.

Melissa: 26:37

So in 2 Corinthians 11.6, Paul says though I may be unskilled in speaking, yet I am not so in knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. He knew that he was not a skilled speaker, which I think is amazing. He had the art of formal discussion. He had the Holy Spirit. He knew he was an unskilled speaker, but what he did have was the spiritual gift of apostleship. I think that gave him persuasive argumentation.

Lenny: 27:10

Yeah Well, an apostle is one that's sent out, so he was sent out by Christ, so he had the spiritual abilities to reach people.

Melissa: 27:19

Yes.

Lenny: 27:19

With his message period.

Melissa: 27:20

So doesn't it seem that that would have been part of the gift?

Lenny: 27:23

The truth. He knew how to get to the point.

Melissa: 27:26

He knew how to effectively discuss.

Lenny: 27:28

Yes.

Melissa: 27:29

Discuss. He was good at discussing. Effectively discuss the truth. Yeah, I just thought that was neat. It kind of hit me that that is part, that's probably part, of that spiritual gift well, it's gotta be.

Lenny: 27:42

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what all the qualifications were, but apostle is one that's sent out. He was sent out by christ.

Melissa: 27:49

If Christ is going to send you out.

Lenny: 27:51

He's a messenger of Christ.

Melissa: 27:53

I would think, if Christ Sent directly by Christ. Right.

Lenny: 27:56

Not just. You have the Holy Spirit now. Go share the gospel. Paul was sent as we were talking about. He was taught by Christ, sent by Christ.

Melissa: 28:04

So I'm thinking if Christ sends you out, he's going to give you the ability to reach people. Yeah. It's just kind of interesting and it reminds me of how you and I are. We see ourselves as introverts. We never saw ourselves having a podcast. I know you've mentioned that. Yeah. But when Christ sends you out to do something, puts you on a mission, he makes it happen.

Lenny: 28:24

It happens.

Melissa: 28:25

So I thought that was really interesting. Paul says, though I may be unskilled in speaking, he knows he's unskilled in speaking, but here's the kicker yet I am not so in knowledge, and we have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. So he's reminding us that the knowledge of truth we have, that's what matters. It's not our fancy speaking, and I think all that will come anyway. God will show you how to have a Christian podcast or how to have a conversation with that friend you've been waiting to have.

Lenny: 28:56

But you mean you don't have to go to a seminary school and be trained on speaking and you can still share your faith? Exactly, I thought you just invited people to your church.

Melissa: 29:05

It's amazing, isn't it? It's so eye-opening. So 2 Corinthians 10, 3 through 6. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ, and we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience once your obedience is complete. So I thought that was so neat. We fight with our words, like he was running his race with his words, his battle, his conquest and the act of disobedience, I think is just uh false teachings.

Lenny: 29:58

How he's demolishing, he's punishing their teaching by exposing the truth with his words he's not talking about whipping and scourging and you know, or god punishing he's talking about. We're punishers, basically, because our truth is punishing agreed, agreed, like Christ. I mean the Pharisees slapping around, but his words punished them. Exactly they hated it too. That's right Not to say. We want people to hate what we're saying, but they might.

Melissa: 30:23

We want the truth to be out there. They might sometimes, but we want the truth to be out. I think every Christian should pray for confidence in the fact that knowledge is what matters, our knowledge in the truth about Christ including myself, I know you feel the same. That's all we need to share the truth.

Lenny: 30:41

Yeah, and praying about it's key, especially when you first become a believer. It's a little overwhelming. How do I explain this? Oh man you don't want to just beat yourself up. Just pray and just seek. If you're praying about it, god's going to give you truth. He's going to give you the ability to explain it, if you want to do that.

Melissa: 30:57

And, like you said, sometimes we have to force ourselves to eat. We have to force ourselves to read scripture. Just sit down and stare at the book.

Lenny: 31:05

And I know through experience that he'll let us fumble and look stupid sometimes too, to teach us what we don't know. Yeah, sometimes more than once or twice. That's how you learn. We were just talking about that, how I was saying it seems like god taught me that I learn everything the hard way. That's the best way I learn. And he said I think that's pretty common. You're just having that conversation, you know you and your dad it's like okay, I think that's maybe everybody I think, humanity is just ignorant, kind of by default we're ignorant Stubborn.

Lenny: 31:33

Stubborn ignorant.

Melissa: 31:35

Learning the hard way is the best way we learn.

Lenny: 31:38

Yeah, but we've got to let the gospel be pervasive in our lives, don't we? Permeate throughout Saturate yes, let it saturate our lives. That's grace living.

Melissa: 31:48

That's grace living. That's grace living. That's right. So I'm really passionate, praying the church as well as myself, about breaking away from this white coat syndrome that we've been given in this life. I'm going to say it like that because you and I know that the evil in this world is at work, trying to blot out Christ. So the white coat syndrome what I'm getting at is it's not an accident that we are this way. The evil in the world has us looking to others and not to our God.

Melissa: 32:18

Yeah, or even just the ignorance of the world going along with Right, certainly the ignorance, but then evil found a way to capitalize on it. It's not an accident that everywhere you turn, we need to use the brains that God gave us and think for ourselves, and it's so important. So I have a lot of passion for that and I wanted to.

Lenny: 32:41

Question everything.

Melissa: 32:42

Yes, we need to question everything, don't live ignorantly, question everything.

Lenny: 32:46

If ignorance is default, you have to be consciously questioning things.

Melissa: 32:50

Yes, yes, your pastor can help you. They can, but they shouldn't be guiding us like sheep. Christ is our shepherd.

Melissa: 32:58

We need to use our brains and think for ourselves. So really passionate about that. If we all just realize that there's no schooling, that you need to talk about Christ, we have everything we need. I noted that if Paul were being self-righteous and out for himself, if he wanted to be recognized for his great oratorical skills, like the philosophers of his day, he certainly would not have admitted that he was not skilled in public speaking and he certainly wouldn't have puffed up the knowledge of Christ and the truth about Christ being what's most important. But he did, and that's amazing and that's how you know that he's genuine.

Melissa: 33:37

Instead, he's constantly reminding the church that he's a servant of Christ Jesus. He's doing the Lord's work, not his own, and that's where I wanted to read 2 Corinthians 5.20. He says 5 20. He says we are therefore christ's ambassadors, as though god were making his appeal through us. We implore you, on christ's behalf, be reconciled to god. They're speaking on christ's behalf. That's where the power in his words is coming from, not his own skill yeah, and actually on that note, in first corin 1, verse 21,.

Lenny: 34:12

He's talking about how God was proud to reveal the gospel through foolishness. The people thought it was foolish. As Christians there's nothing foolish about the gospel at all, but to the world it's foolish Right, and you see that especially with atheists.

Melissa: 34:30

So I thought that was really encouraging that Paul is not a skilled public speaker. He knows it, people notice it. They mentioned that this article here in this historical Bible, his spoken rhetorical skills fell short of the educated Corinthian Christians.

Lenny: 34:48

Yep, yeah, because you gather that from the Corinthian letters.

Melissa: 34:51

I just think it's such a strong point really drives it home. 2 Corinthians 10, 7-18,. Paul said you are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do. So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

Melissa: 35:17

I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters, for some say his letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing. Ouch, and his speaking amounts to nothing, ouch. Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present. We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but we will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. So I thought to myself are we looking for this today in the churches?

Lenny: 36:08

Would it be safe to say if you take the hook of the look, you lose the context of the book.

Melissa: 36:17

That would be perfect to say the hook of the look. Are we looking for this today? I think we are. I think we're looking to be entertained.

Lenny: 36:27

That's a very interesting factual view, because when you pick out a church building that you want to go to so often, it just seems like, more often than not, basing it on entertainment. There's a stage in the front of the building that you go to every week. What's the stage for?

Melissa: 36:46

I know that in Greece they had it for their entertainment.

Melissa: 36:51

The pagans had the theater and that's where they would go to be entertained. And on that note I just want to mention in the notes here about 2 Corinthians 10.10, when he says his speaking amounts to nothing. The commentary, I thought was insightful, says although both speaking and writing could reveal one's intellect, some were dissatisfied with Paul's speaking skills in person. Greeks required respectable speakers to be not only strong in content but also forceful in tone, having also the appropriate accent, gestures and even style of clothing and personal grooming.

Lenny: 37:32

Yeah, is that any different than today? It's more casual attire, it seems like, maybe in some Protestant churches versus Catholic churches per se, where they tend to look more like Jewish, let's say.

Melissa: 37:46

Yeah.

Lenny: 37:46

Everything has Jewish symbolism. Ironically, but yeah, it's entertainment symbolism ironically, but yeah, it's entertainment. But if you look at the churches in our letters, was Paul looking for a stage? Was he looking around to try to find a stage? You know, when he was gathering with them, he would have been considered a leader overseeing the churches. Was he even there all the time? No, he was traveling. He wanted to see them, but there was other people that were leading in different things. There's all this structure, but was that structure anything like what we see today in our church buildings? I would argue not even close, not even close, not even close. Pastor, it's used what? One time in our New Testament. There's no qualifications. It's not an honorific title. It's silly actually that we stretch it into some kind of a role. It was a spiritual gift. What is it? We don't even know. So we don't even know what pastor is. But we use it today and we put a nicer outfit on that person and put them up on a podium.

Melissa: 38:43

We put a white coat on them, don't?

Lenny: 38:45

we At a pulpit Could be a suit, could be blue, but the white coat thing applies.

Melissa: 38:51

That's what I'm saying.

Lenny: 38:51

They're different. They stand out All of a sudden they're better and that person speaks. But when you look at the Corinthian church and you hear other grace teachers talking about this, you saw cooperation, you saw encouragement, you saw engagement. You saw people participating. The whole point was participation in the body.

Lenny: 39:14

Now I don't take that to the point of starting to talk about spiritual gifts, because I believe those ended before 70 AD and those were part of the signs and wonders. We don't get the gift of knowledge. If it happened that God chose to do that, he can do that, but that's not the way he's working. Today. We don't wake up and our Bible is on our nightstand when we went to bed and now we know how to read and interpret the Bible and so we can go preach it to everybody. You don't see that kind of stuff Anytime. I've run into somebody that claimed to have that. The context of what they were teaching did not reveal it. The supernatural gifts ended. The age of those ended in 70 AD the destruction of the temple and I think the spiritual gifts were fading before that. If you study it, you see that they seem to be fading out before that.

Melissa: 39:57

We were talking about wanting to be impressed and entertained when we learn about Christ. And why is that? That looks like the world. That doesn't look like what we saw in the early churches. Yeah Right.

Lenny: 40:09

Right, and so what would you expect to see if you were trying to do church differently? If you're trying to do church like what you would have seen in the early churches, it doesn't look anything like what people are doing today in these buildings. Nothing like it, nothing at all. Anybody starts trying to mimic what we have going on today. It doesn't look like church to me at all. You start falling for the same stuff. You have to have a structure, a pastor up front, the entertainment, but what would church really look like? And it's on the note of persuasive argumentation and pervasiveness we would all be contributing. There'd be people talking about the deeper things, like we're doing here. This is church.

Melissa: 40:49

Anybody can do this?

Lenny: 40:51

This is getting together for Christ.

Melissa: 40:54

Anybody can do it and we all should do it. We all should get good at arguing for Christ.

Lenny: 41:00

Church is an organic thing. It's when you get together and you're talking about Christ. There is no rules and I think we got to get this out of our heads about this established. Look, this appearance, this superficial appearance, where you have to go to a church and sign up for a study group and do all these things.

Melissa: 41:19

I think the minute that those worldly things start to come into the picture, it's like an egg cracking and a baby bird coming out. It's slowly. The world is getting a foothold. Yeah. Slowly the flesh in the world and it just goes south from there. It can't be. I'll just say the church can't be all it can be the body of Christ when we put ourselves under those worldly expectations.

Lenny: 41:44

No.

Melissa: 41:45

We talked about what we thought it might look like. I had shared that on a podcast. I had heard someone had mentioned they'd looked up the history about what would happen in the temples, that anyone could go in and speak. You go into the temple and if you wanted to speak you would stand up in your seat to speak. You didn't go to the front of the room, you didn't go up on a stage or put yourself in front of a podium.

Melissa: 42:12

You stood up so that your voice could carry, so that people could hear you and they would know who was speaking. But you were in your seat, you were in the audience. Rather you were in with everyone part of the body. You were not putting yourself above the body, and so we thought maybe a situation where just an example of people in a room all seated at tables and whoever wanted to speak would take turns, standing up as part of the body and sharing.

Lenny: 42:43

Yeah, you have to be striving for growth participation. I think the real thing is that we just really need to be discerning and thinking in our minds what should church really look like? What would it really look like? If people knew what a biblical gathering looked like.

Melissa: 42:59

Based on what we see in scripture.

Lenny: 43:02

Yes.

Melissa: 43:03

Right, they didn't like you said. They didn't have the stage. That was a pagan thing.

Lenny: 43:06

And sadly we got to let go of these Roman, urban Greek views of things.

Melissa: 43:12

They leeched on to everything.

Lenny: 43:14

It happened right after the apostles were gone. The Gentiles got led into salvation and it just got crazy right off the bat.

Melissa: 43:22

Let's not blame it all on them, because the Jews are just as evil.

Lenny: 43:25

Well, we don't have any anymore.

Melissa: 43:27

We're all Gentiles. Now, that's right.

Lenny: 43:32

So, but anyway, did you have anything else to say, Melissa, or are we going to call it a wrap for today and hit it again next week?

Melissa: 43:35

Well, I think everybody can see why we started with the topic of the letters in general because there were so many exciting things to learn and to share.

Lenny: 43:44

Absolutely. I think we've said all that we need to say for this week. Next week we're going to get into more of an introduction to the letter to the Romans, more specific to Romans, and then after that, we'll be diving right into the scriptures and we'll be in there for a while, won't we?

Melissa: 43:59

I think it's going to take some time.

Lenny: 44:00

I haven't calculated it yet. We're going to just hit these passages and it's going to be fun and probably end up doing topics in between. We're going to have a blast and I look forward to seeing you guys next week. Don't be afraid to reach out. Let us know what you're thinking. We'd love to hear from you. You can do that right from our episodes and transcripts page. That'll be in the description of our episodes, as they always are. If you want to make a comment on YouTube or something, or Spotify, that's fine too. We love having people on our website, don't we?

Melissa: 44:27

Yes, we do.

Lenny: 44:28

That's why we built it, so we invite you to check it out. All right, see you guys next week.

Announcement: 44:34

Thank you for listening to the Waking Up to Grace podcast brought to you by the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. If you enjoyed today's episode, we would love to hear from you. You can send encouragement our way right from our episodes and transcripts page or reach Lenny privately from the contact form at wakinguptogracecom.